CJ, What Are The Worst Tactical Myths That You Find Are Still Taught To LEOs and Mili

[Brian Jones]

Just wondered, from your personal experience as an operator, police officer, and trainer, what particular myths these are? How often do you see police officers and military units still subscribing to them? How do these differ from the reality that has been learned on the street and in the jungles? Do you even find some elite Spec Ops units subscribing to these myths?

Thanks in advance, CJ!

Best,

Brian.

P.S. Bummed that I missed the NY show -- heard it went well. Had a serious emergency of my own. I'll drop you a note or call you soon.

 

[CJ Caracci]

Brian,
I am sorry that I missed you in NY. I hope all is well with you.
Now, let us address this killer question.
Fortunately you said worst, because the list would again be beyond my ability here.
I think, as always I will answer this with the fundamentals in mind, I am not sure exactly what you are looking for but as is customary with you something constructive for our readers I am sure.
I thank you for the question.
Whether or not law enforcement wants to admit it a lot of their tactical fundamentals come from the military. So any problem with the military will certainly manifest itself sooner or later with in tactical law enforcement. There are those in law enforcement that have enough experience to know where the military flaws are but generally that’s because they or someone they knew learned it the hard way.
The simplest way to explain this is by saying that the US Military has all the $ but does not have enough real life experience. In law enforcement, in a busy area, tactics are tried daily and if there are bugs they are known immediately.
Another problem with the military, at least in the Spec War community, is that people are forced to rotate, and retires and other experienced veterans leave. The fact that people leave would not be such an issue if it weren’t for the fact that there is no network in place to utilize the millions of dollars we put into their respective training and attempt to store their valuable knowledge. With those that rotate, we constantly find people that replace them wanting to reinvent the wheel to feed their own egos and not because there is a better way necessarily. Both of these issues translate into invaluable data and experiences being lost.

Another common military issue is that the farther we move away from the last war, the farther we move away from the lessons we learned. This is because those that taught us are going and gone.

If we look away from the military we find another interesting element. Without lessons learned from war we look at other arenas where a person with “similar skills” can be judged but this is sport not life and death. There in lies the problem.

If one learns from a champion competition shooter or competition fighter, can one be sure that the techniques used were tactically sound? There was a period that military shooters were performing magazine changes for their handguns from their waist level. This was done because a competition shooter pointed out that this would allow for a faster change due to the reduced necessary movement and proximity of the hands to the magazines. Yet, invariably this would force an operator to look down ever so briefly. When targets can move, then a combat veteran will tell you one of the worst things that can happen is for one to take their eye off a moving target.
You see without the advent of real life experience it is difficult to access the techniques being learned. Changing that magazine at eye level and looking through the gun maybe a tad slower but my priority is not losing the bad guy I might be able to afford the minute time delay.
As a young frogman I was very fortunate that I was surrounded by Viet Nam veterans; these lessons and names I will never forget.
I was involved in a training contract as a civilian years later for one of the most elite combat units in the American Military and this was right after their involvement in a small mission that went wrong. I was amazed; at that time they found out that .223 especially green tip (armor piercing ammo) was not effective on people. My first Seal Platoon as I have already referred to was inclined to carry all .308 (M14), this because of the experiences of our OIC (officer-in-charge) a highly decorated war veteran.
I also noted that our (Seal Team One) most fundamental way of mounting a long gun they had never even seen before. They all practiced sport oriented mounting techniques widely taught in some of the premiere shooting schools across the country. Some of these schools were actually initiated by so called combat veterans. It makes you wonder doesn’t it? Our rifles are mounted from a hip firing position; this allows for one thing but is not limited to the weapon always being on target and to allow a comfortable patrolling position. If from that position I was to engage a target and my weapon was blocked from my shoulder mount position by vegetation, architecture or intervention from anything else, I am still in a position to fire my weapon on target. I would rather get a round off low but on target than not to get one off at all. There is no other mount technique that allows the same thing.

Fighting skills are no different; we have few people with the real life street fighting experience. When I was training as a Frogman I thought that if we just suited up and went at it that we would learn what needs to done. Well, I learned that our techniques required some refinement, especially when I started mixing it up in law enforcement with real people that wanted to kill me, or Ex-cons who have spent 20 years pumping iron and were not going back to the joint for anything.
I fought full contact while in the Navy everywhere and with anybody (various countries) until a man made it clear to me that I was in fact practicing with rules and that in my profession there were no rules. I forgot this lesson once as a cop and I got into the ring to help a friend and was reminded about it very quickly when suddenly I was not allowed to do what I do best.
VERY IMPORTANT!
I have seen Martial Artist talk some of the best military units into techniques that are not practical but they wouldn't know it for lack of vision and practical experience.
I have a priceless knife in my collection it comes from a Sea Brother (BC) who put two kills on it and prior to that it was given to him by another Frog who had three kills with it. This knife is an unmarked Randell SOG. It was passed onto me to hold as for the others it now had bad "Ju Ju". The story of the kills on this knife demonstrates so many lessons. One holder was taught that to kill a person a strike through the rectum would reach the lower aorta (in stomach area) and kill him. Well upon having an occasion to try this technique not once, but twice, (incase the first time he did something wrong), it was learned that a blood bath would ensue and after tens of stabs death did result but not fast and not easy. The next story was about a hairy chest Frogman who carried an M60 and wanted to score a knife body count this time no particular technique was employed but again after a blood bath the result was achieved. The enemy was considerably older and weaker than the Frogman but both were exhausted and one had passed on.
The point here is some people who teach things have no business doing so and others think they know with no experience.
Now I am not trying to say that my experience with a knife or anything else is all-inclusive but I did seek out the training from those who I know have had the unfortunate experience of battle and generally know the result from their technique. I have since gained a good amount of my own battle experience; but then again no matter what technique or how many times one is successful with it there is never a guarantee that it will always work the same way next time, this is why fundamentals are so important!
Practice without rules and be true to your "WAY". Be able to distinguish between sport and impractical techniques for the battle and the practical ones.
A chokehold from the best is ineffective if my knife goes into to their ribs or I rip out their eyes in the process.
This you all must research on your own.
If this writing stimulates some specific questions on specific techniques I will welcome them.
I know this was not specific enough for you Brian but there is just so much to say on the subject, and there are so few who truly know, unfortunately those that do often don’t say because these experiences are not to be shared with just anyone.

 

[Brian Jones]

Chris,

Thanks for the reply -- it's exactly what I was looking for. I realized after I posted this question I was risking your getting carpal tunnel syndrome from a reply. I'll send some ice-packs.

It's hard within the confines of this forum to get too specific, I know, and you went way beyond the call of duty. I hope everyone here thinks very carefully about what you wrote, because it brings up so many critical factors regarding self-reliance and self-protection. For all of us, civilian and professional, these distinctions often will mean (and often have meant) the critical difference between surviving a fight/battle or not.

I'm going to meditate on this awhile and get back with more specifics -- the points about sport-oriented skills v. combat skills is an important one, and I think it bears further discussion. So many people mistake their sport martial arts as a street-fighting art, and it amazes me that even some of our elite units fail to recognize how to adapt their overall tactical training for combat, if they get it from a "sport-type" person. I've seen some interestingly disturbing things, too, when training some SWAT teams on weapons retention and disarms.

As far as those really juicy specifics go, I'll try to pry those outta you next time I get to train with you.

Thanks again, CJ.

Best,

Brian.

 

[Crayola]

Awesome question Brian, and a great response from CJ, Thanks to both of you. I know that at one time our local militia were taught Tae Kwon-Do techniques. I shuddered to hear that combat soldiers were learning cross blocks and high side kicks. I do have a black belt in TKD, and I thought what was taught was inappropriate. I talked to a solder here that I know and she told me she spent some time doing some H@H stuff with the JTF guys (Canadian Spec. Forces). She told me that they did mock fights and they lasted 10 minutes. Again, I shuddered. It seems to me that this is ridiculous. I hope that I mis-interpreted her, or that she meant they did drills and not real saparring/fighting.
I suspect I am guilty of having very bad habits myself. I haben't trained in 2 years and Ibet I learned som bad stuff along the way, unbeknownst to me. I am happy we have forums like these and great people with great experiences to share. Thanks for being your brothers' keeper, and I will strive to be my brothers' keeper.

 

[Parker]

"A chokehold from the best is ineffective if my knife goes into their ribs or I rip out their eyes in the process."

This is perhaps the most eloquently phrasing I have heard outside of my own instructor, whjo put it similarly:

"I don't care if you bunch me in the face while I am burying my knife in your liver."

Well said, sir.

 

[Sierra912]

The worst tactical myth that occurs in both LE and the military, regardless of duty assignment, unit, rank, or seniority, is this -

Believing your own press.

Doing so leads to arrogance. Arrogance leads to disdain. Disdain leads to disregard. Disregard leads to carelessness. Carelessness leads to mistakes. Mistakes lead to injury, death, and mission failure.

Warriors who stay humble, stay alive.

 

[flyingmonkey]

I think one of the biggest mistakes is when someone relies on a weapon to solve problems. Weapons are a tool that are used with one's skills, not a replacement for, or instead of. Often, people think that just because they carry a weapon that they are at an inherent advantage. Often, one's weapon can be used against them. There is no replacement for hard and realistic training in combative arts.
I have encountered many a LEO mention that "all your training is useless because I have a gun". Well, maybe, if the situation calls for a gun. Most situations do not validate shooting someone. In many cases shooting someone is far beyand the call for self-defense. Is it really acceptable in these modern times to shoot or stab someone when your life is not threatened? Many problems need solving skills other than violent actions.
I certainly understand that wartime actions differ, but for everyday patrol, one must be skilled enough to effectively diffuse situations and take control without the myth that weapons, utimately, are the end-all answer.
FM.

 

[Sierra912]

As a trainer of police officers in both firearms and defensive tactics, the truth is that cops are perhaps - due to the nature in which they are mandated to approach people in 99% of their contacts -terribly easy to successfully assault.

Nationwide statistics on officer related injuries / deaths due to assault support this year after year.

Training, however, is getting better and officers are learning how to use multiple talents and skills to enhance their personal safety on the street.

Anyone - cop or otherwise - who offers what you related to us is kidding himself. The stats on officers who have their sidearms taken away from them during assaults and then are either wounded or killed with their own guns serves as stark evidence of this myth.

Arrogance does not translate as safety or skill.

 

[MDELEO]

Hello everybody.

As a LEO in Catalonia (Spain) I would like to share my experience in the tactical topic, in case it may be interestiing to any of you.

As I have seen in all your threads (and please tell me if I'm wrong), it seems to be quite easy for all of you to get access to a variety of training courses.Whether you are more or less trained for the street depends on you .

I have always believed that it is better to have it and not to need it than need it and not to have it. I'm talking about training, something that it's quite difficult to get here. I'll just say that we practice shooting once a year (150 rounds if you are lucky, static shooting). Apart from this practice, we are legally allowed to buy 50 rounds per year (you can believe me).

But let's forget firearms (something pretty taboo here in my agency). As refers to self defense techniques, or CQC techniques, we have an optional one-day seminar held by a trainer (again once a year). Apart from that, I've attended a couple of seminars on tactics, but the offer of courses here is almost inexistant (and very expensive).

If you can't make yourselves an idea about the situation here, tell me and I'll give you more details, in the meantime I would thank some feedback for the following rethoric questions:

Will budget affairs help me if some day I'm face to face with an unfriendly UCK ex-combatant?
Is mental attitude enough if you lack practical skills?
Is it usual to see surprised faces when in a law enforcement environment you carry a folder knife + a surefire as backup equipment?.

Greetings from Catalonia, Spain