Cops and their side-piece - Tong Fa

golok

golok

Joined
Oct 20, 2000
Messages
4,453
I believe that cops on the beat carries that black stick which is called the Tong Fa.

Is it really that useful? How many of them really know how to use it to its maximum potential?

In the ancient days, that piece of stick can be a deadly weapon if used by a skilled exponent of the art of tong fa defence and attack.

Any tong fa experts out there?
 
In american it's called a side-handle baton, and it's based on the okinowan weapon (I always saw it spelled tonfa). I don't know much about them, but I'd love to know whether they are more or less effective than an ASP expandable baton.
 
The tonfa/PR24 is far better as a blocking tool since it works off the existing bone structure and can be used one handed. It allows some truly effective locks and comealongs, but these require intensive training to learn. LAPD, in fact, deleted all the comealongs and takedowns from their curriculum prior to the Rodney King incident to shorten training time and keep costs down (of course, from the video, it was clear they weren't too well versed on how to strike with them, either).

The spinning strikes are quite powerful as well. MacYoung once wrote about LAPD cops, unable to control the spin properly, who ended up breaking their humerus bones, I believe on the opposite arm.

If the agency in question isn't going to invest much in training time, they're better off with a straight baton of suitable length.
 
I knew a GA LEO who used them when they were issue. One time he responded to a call and got assaulted by a guy on PCP. He was knocked unconscious for a moment, then woke up to see his partner being violently assaulted. He took his side-handle baton and from the deck rapped the guy full-force on the shin so hard that the baton recoiled out of his hand and his arm went numb. Found out later the guy had a prosthetic leg.

They are a versitale and formidable weapon. I think LEO issue has a steel or iron rod in them to reinforce and add weight to them. Anything you can do with a tonfa you can do with a side-handle baton. I think Demura has a book on tonfa. I seem to remember an old O'Hara book on police nightstick that had a section on side-handle baton. They are good for high-velocity whipping action with the side-handle as a pivot in your hand, blocking with the long end down the length of your forearm, as well as driving thrusts with the short-end. I haven't played with them much.

Jerry Van Cook wrote that Rex Applegate had a cane rigged like a side-handle baton that he kept at hand even when confined to a wheelchair.
 
Side handle baton pr PR-24 is a piece of crap in my opinion. I have one and i hate it. Leave it in car rather than bring it with me. JUNK!
 
One of the most effective "take-downs" with a side-handle baton, AKA....The PR-24 WAS, WAS, WAS the "Georgia State Police " take-down. That of course was long ago and now very forgotten. During its' hayday, the PR-24 was a very effective intermediate tool in a well trained LEO's hands. If one was a National level certified, he/she could do some pretty amazing things, but the key is WHEN to know When to escalate in the force contiunum, and drop the baton and move to deadly force. THIS is the stage that cause many LEO's to find peril. Today, the side-handle baton requires FAR too much training and the ASP (trade name)is the current impact tool preferred by the trainers.....wolf ( You all know the reasons;) )
 
Other than portability, what can an ASP do that a solid wooden stick can't.....
 
The tonfa is an old Okinawan martial arts weapon. It is exactly the same concept as a side-handle baton.

The tonfa has its practical applications, but it must be remembered that as with all traditional Okinawan weapons, the tonfa was a farming implement converted to a weapon for its merits in defeating a sword-wielding opponent.

These weapons were intended for use against members of the occupational Japanese army in the case that soliders would try to pillage their homes. Since the Japanese would most likely be armed with swords when roaming the countryside, all Okinawan weapons are designed with this fact in mind.

The advantage of the tonfa is that it can be held with the length of the weapon against the forearm. This makes it very easy to block sword strikes and quickly move into very close range. There the shorter, butt end of the tonfa could be used to deliver punching strikes to the chest and face, and after stunning the opponent with such strikes, circular, spinning strikes with the tip of the tonfa could be used to finish him off. The tonfa can also be employed in a variety of grappling takedowns, joint locks, and chokes.

The main difference between the ASP baton and the tonfa is their respective optimal ranges. The ASP is intended for use from medium/long range, while the tonfa is intended for use from medium/short range. For everyday law enforcement use, I would probably pick the ASP as more effective. It allows the officer to keep range with his opponent more easily and avoid a potentially lethal hand-to-hand grappling combat where a wide variety of dangers will confront him - the criminal could pull a knife, use the officer's firearm against him, or have his buddies come by and beat the officer into the ground.

For these reasons, I would think that the ASP baton would be more effective for everyday law enforcement use.
 
ASP also takes less training to use as it's movements are pretty instinctive.
 
How many remember the Georgis State Police, and then the "modified" Georgia state Police take-down? Just curious if you fond it to be a tactically superior move up-close and personal with a PR-24, and Have you found any take-down with a straight baton as effective?....wolf
 
I respond to this one because the foundation of the answer is an underlying problem within Law Enforcement. It is reminiscent of the development of the double action automatic. I have always felt that this was an answer to a problem that never existed.
The straight stick is itself a fine weapon with great potential, however it requires a good deal of practice from a knowing source for one to be effective. Law Enforcement has always had a problem with the masses wanting to practice anything. Thus the unknowing decided that this weapon with it's right angle handle would be easier to use and to be effective with. Answer,,,,,,,,,, WRONG! It requires practice too. This weapon is more cumbersome to wear and it can do more damage easier, that we have seen.
Once again it is the blind leading the people who need help (unqualified people making qualified decisions).
Is it a better weapon than a straight stick no, it is just another one.
 
Been in law enforcement for 30+ years...
Back in 68, we were told to go out and buy a nightstick, as it might come in handy. No instruction, no technique; whack em' on the head if they give you trouble. Lots of broken nightsticks and heads.

Later on, my department brought in this English guy who had a nightstick "course" consisting of a single technique; a two-handed forward thrust to the solar plexus. Needless to say, this guy has been lost in obscurity.
Then, the side-handle baton became the rage; new to law enforcement, but old hat to us MA types who knew a bit about Okinawan-derived Karate.
As stated above, the problem was complexity. However, current training theory, as espoused by PPCT ( I'm a qualified instructor ) is that complexity is a problem not only because cops are too lazy to train, ( well....) but from a physiological standpoint. Under high
stress, with the pulse above 150 or so, our ability to perform complex actions gets badly degraded. So, PPCT, and now other systems, use simple, gross-body-movement techniques that can be used under stress.
We currently use the ASP; I dont find it better one way or another as a weapon. It is more portable, and that's a plus- the officer
doesn't have to fuss with keeping a solid stick in the car, remembering to take it with him each time he exits, and having the damn thing dangling from his belt, along with all the other bits we have to carry!
I have a bit of background in Filipino techniques; but using these highly effective practices in a law enforcement context will likely get you fired or indicted, unless it's a "deadly force" situation.
 
CJC, I know you are intimate training with and perfecting the use of the Monadnock PR-24. In it's time in the limelight, training started with a five day basic course with testing, and then, at least here in NH, we had to re-test every six months. new techniques were just piled on and unless you were an instructor handling in one instance, 90 students at a time, it was downright impossible to "habititate" someone to instictively use the appropriate block, strike or takedown. the basic course was perfected, with only 20% of the side-handle baton's use put into practice. Very few could master "chicken wings, wrist take downs, The Georgia state Police and do so via instinct. It was decided by the Gold badges who worked the street maybe, but many were pure non-cop Admins that training to the PR-24 was not cost-effective and they had dellusions of bseball swings to the temple as the norm. back to the staright baton we went. Then the expendable, with the intimidator, just like racking one in an 870. A LEO whips out this small handle and with command presence he whips out the ASP to a full 16, 21 or 26" and then takes a stance. In the movies, the LEO would take his weak hand, smirk and just flick his fingers back twowards himself inviting his advbersary to engage ala Jim Carrey. The ASP training, sadly,is NOT reality and many an ASP ended up up someone's ASP or worse had to be shot because some non-LEO ended up with someone's ASP!!!!
Bottom line....TRAINING...Take care CJC......wolf
 
Well, I know a little about the use of the Tonfa/PR-24. In Germany it is called MES and it grow up to the the LEOs standard punshing-tool. Why? Not because it is effective, but because it is ineffective! The politicans didn't want the LEO to hurt the BGs to much so they introduced that stuff. I have some "Certification to be able to handle it":eek: (Sounds cool :) ). I agree with kh21106: IT IS CRAP! Even most Karate-Masters I've seen weren't able to use it very effective and the weapon is from their art! Go and get an ASP, that's 300% more effective! It's also esay to defend against, just pay attention to strike with the short end. During a seminar I even dropped my tonfa and defeated the other guy empty-hand LOL.
If you are interested in it buy a cheap one (but none of wood because they tend to break) and play around with it, then you'll see if you like or not.
 
So, now that EVERY LEO who is FORCED by Dept. policy to carry a side-handle baton, but at least is trained to the maximum levels of profiency should lose ALL confidence in it as an impact weapon because.....?.
Hey, the right tool for the job, simple concept, but until Police ADMIN get there Arse on the street and stop having a one word vocabulary, LIABILITY, cops will NEVER have the right tool for "the call at hand". It may be a straight baton, a side-handle baton or an M-60. But is sure as heck will never happen in LE. So, a LEO needs to take what he is ordered to take and then TRAIN to his maximum levels. Then, when the situation calls for a LAWS Rocket and all he has is a camp rifle, he can at least put up some suppressive firepower and call in an air-strike!!!!!
Tools of the trade...WHAT ARE they, E$XACTLY?:confused: :confused: :( ;) wolf
 
Collapsible batons are all the rage because of their convenience, not because they possess superior functional characteristics than the PR24. (Other than the collapsing feature, of course.)

That about paraphrases the three different baton instructors I have trained with.
 
The side handle baton is a GREAT weapon once you saw off that little piece stiking out of the side of it. Never understood why they put that on there, oh well, mine works good now.

mk
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top