High Carbon Steel - UK

Joined
Apr 17, 2023
Messages
5
Hi there, I am new to the forums and starting out to learn bladesmithing. I have been studying various media, youtube, tutorials etc and would like to know about different high carbon steels in the UK. I have learnt about various steels, like, 1095, wcrv2, 51200 etc but have found they are known differently in the UK which can be confusing ? Also, has anyone got a list of steels which can be scavenged in the UK ie springs, leaf springs , tools etc Thank you in advance ! Ady
 
Yeah, there are a bunch of different specifications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_grades#Category_2_:_Steel_specified_by_chemical_composition
I don't know what scheme they use over there, but you should be able to work out an equivalent with some googling. Best bet is to learn about the chemistry and learn to read a spec sheet.

Try ordering a bit of known steel to practice on, maybe a 1080 or 5160 equivalent, rather than messing around with recycled steel that may have stress fractures in it.
Edit: probably the question to start with is what sort of knife you want to make and how. There's no point stocking up on W2 if you want to make cleavers
 
what part of the UK are you in? There are several makers in London and Sheffield that you could try contacting for scavenging....
 
There are plenty of sources of "known" steels. GFS is a good one, as mentioned above.

Ground Flat Stock, aka "Gauge Plate" is O1 steel, available precision ground to various widths and thicknesses from any decent engineers suppliers (there are not so many around nowadays), and BS1407 "silver steel" is a water-hardening steel available in precision-ground rounds. Both have tended to be used for shop-made tooling and gauges. The precision grinding is an expensive process, which is just a nuisance if you want to forge, but it can be an affordable source of known steel if you buy old stock.
GFS have branched out from just supplying Ground Flat Stock and Silver Steel to include a range of materials and supplies for knifemakers, hence their listing of other knifemaking steels. Their "Silver Steel" is now to a slightly different spec: W1.2210, rather than BS1407. W1.2210 has a trace of Vanadium in it and is arguably better for knives.

Silver Steel is hard to move under the hammer, but seems to heat-treat well without needing a soak at Austenitizing temperature, something that can be difficult to achieve with backyard Heat-Treat methods. It is available in 3' imperial lengths and 1m metric lengths. If you are a beginner, these are great: you can hold the cold end and work the hot end without having to use tongs (which are the work of the devil). The no-soak and quench-in-water HT is helpful in keeping equipment costs down. Tempering can be done in a domestic oven, though you'll want to clean the oil off thoroughly if you oil-quench in order to minimize domestic disharmony. A lot of domestic ovens have quite wild temperature swings, so burying the blade in a tray of dry sand (I'd strongly recommend kiddies play sand, as it is washed, kiln-dried and doesn't smell of feline waste when heated).

If quenching in oil, note that American references to "Canola" oil are for normal Vegetable (rapeseed) Oil over here. As I understand it, when Rapeseed oil took off as a crop, the Canadian Oil Seed Growers Association decided selling Rape to American housewives wasn't going to go well at all and trademarked the unambiguous "Canola" for marketing purposes.

If you are looking at recycling previously-used items, you'll be looking at using "unknown" steel. There are lists of steels that may have been used for certain things, but it's not safe to assume that they were the steels actually used without a lot of extra research and/or experiment. 15N20, for example, is certainly used for bandsaw blades, but so are several other steels. It does not follow that a random bandsaw blade is made from 15N20.

It's usually a question of time vs money: if time is the limiting factor, spending money on known steel is probably worthwhile. If money is the limiting factor, spending time trying (and often failing) to get unknown steels to work well may be worthwhile.

If unknown steel is the way you want/need to go, old files tend to be a relatively safe bet. They tend to be a fairly plain high-Carbon steel. In the UK, look for Stubs brand in particular at car boot sales and the like.
 
Have you found the Edge Matters forum? You must register to read. Smaller than Blade Forums, and fewer makers, but UK based, so handy for UK sourcing questions.

I am UK based. I make but few knives a year, but have been doing so for 20 years. The advent of online, knife specific steel suppliers, like Ground Flat Stock, and Barmond Sheffield Special Steels, have really reduced the reason for scavenging steel.

When I started I used Wayne Godard’s books as reference, and while things like his goop quench have been discredited, even he, a great proponent of scavenging steel, gave an example of the problems it can cause. He had a spring that was much harder to forge than expected. Never mind the risk of micro cracks, mystery spring steel can have chemistry that makes forging harder, or prevents it from reaching desired hardness. Old files are good, so long as they are not cheap case hardened.

If you are interested in the most basic forging, check out Dave Budd’s work. He runs courses too.
 
what part of the UK are you in? There are several makers in London and Sheffield that you could try contacting for scavenging....
Iam just outside Norwich, Norfolk.
There are plenty of sources of "known" steels. GFS is a good one, as mentioned above.

Ground Flat Stock, aka "Gauge Plate" is O1 steel, available precision ground to various widths and thicknesses from any decent engineers suppliers (there are not so many around nowadays), and BS1407 "silver steel" is a water-hardening steel available in precision-ground rounds. Both have tended to be used for shop-made tooling and gauges. The precision grinding is an expensive process, which is just a nuisance if you want to forge, but it can be an affordable source of known steel if you buy old stock.
GFS have branched out from just supplying Ground Flat Stock and Silver Steel to include a range of materials and supplies for knifemakers, hence their listing of other knifemaking steels. Their "Silver Steel" is now to a slightly different spec: W1.2210, rather than BS1407. W1.2210 has a trace of Vanadium in it and is arguably better for knives.

Silver Steel is hard to move under the hammer, but seems to heat-treat well without needing a soak at Austenitizing temperature, something that can be difficult to achieve with backyard Heat-Treat methods. It is available in 3' imperial lengths and 1m metric lengths. If you are a beginner, these are great: you can hold the cold end and work the hot end without having to use tongs (which are the work of the devil). The no-soak and quench-in-water HT is helpful in keeping equipment costs down. Tempering can be done in a domestic oven, though you'll want to clean the oil off thoroughly if you oil-quench in order to minimize domestic disharmony. A lot of domestic ovens have quite wild temperature swings, so burying the blade in a tray of dry sand (I'd strongly recommend kiddies play sand, as it is washed, kiln-dried and doesn't smell of feline waste when heated).

If quenching in oil, note that American references to "Canola" oil are for normal Vegetable (rapeseed) Oil over here. As I understand it, when Rapeseed oil took off as a crop, the Canadian Oil Seed Growers Association decided selling Rape to American housewives wasn't going to go well at all and trademarked the unambiguous "Canola" for marketing purposes.

If you are looking at recycling previously-used items, you'll be looking at using "unknown" steel. There are lists of steels that may have been used for certain things, but it's not safe to assume that they were the steels actually used without a lot of extra research and/or experiment. 15N20, for example, is certainly used for bandsaw blades, but so are several other steels. It does not follow that a random bandsaw blade is made from 15N20.

It's usually a question of time vs money: if time is the limiting factor, spending money on known steel is probably worthwhile. If money is the limiting factor, spending time trying (and often failing) to get unknown steels to work well may be worthwhile.

If unknown steel is the way you want/need to go, old files tend to be a relatively safe bet. They tend to be a fairly plain high-Carbon steel. In the UK, look for Stubs brand in particular at car boot sales and the like.
Thank you so much for your reply Tim. I will mainly be looking at steel for blades. I have learnt such a lot on here and a few Facebook groups. I have ordered a Ribbon Forge, 2 x 72 bench grinder and a forging press is being built as we speak ! I am looking forward to the adventure, but againn thank you for your detailed reply. Ady
 
Have you found the Edge Matters forum? You must register to read. Smaller than Blade Forums, and fewer makers, but UK based, so handy for UK sourcing questions.

I am UK based. I make but few knives a year, but have been doing so for 20 years. The advent of online, knife specific steel suppliers, like Ground Flat Stock, and Barmond Sheffield Special Steels, have really reduced the reason for scavenging steel.

When I started I used Wayne Godard’s books as reference, and while things like his goop quench have been discredited, even he, a great proponent of scavenging steel, gave an example of the problems it can cause. He had a spring that was much harder to forge than expected. Never mind the risk of micro cracks, mystery spring steel can have chemistry that makes forging harder, or prevents it from reaching desired hardness. Old files are good, so long as they are not cheap case hardened.

If you are interested in the most basic forging, check out Dave Budd’s work. He runs courses too.
Hi, I will look up Edge Forums, thank you for the tip. I am keen to recycle, scavenge and create. I will look out for some old quality files etc. Ady
 
Iam just outside Norwich, Norfolk.

Thank you so much for your reply Tim. I will mainly be looking at steel for blades. I have learnt such a lot on here and a few Facebook groups. I have ordered a Ribbon Forge, 2 x 72 bench grinder and a forging press is being built as we speak ! I am looking forward to the adventure, but againn thank you for your detailed reply. Ady
Where are you getting the ribbon forge from?
 
There's a VAST difference between good and poor grinders and probably an even greater difference between good and poor presses. Forges and burners are a particular area of interest for me and I'm not aware of a well-sorted, commercially available ribbon burner forge over here. You are clearly not in the keen-but-horribly-skint category where unknown steels are the only credible option.

The VERY FIRST thing I'd be splashing out on is some tuition. Dave Budd has been suggested already. He's in Devon. Owen Bush runs a range of courses, including pattern-welding (I'm guessing that's where you are intending to go with the press?) in Kent.

There's a tendency (and I've been guilty of this) to think that having the kit is 90% of the job, when in fact it's more like 10% of the job and the other 90% is having the skills and knowledge to use it.
 
There's a VAST difference between good and poor grinders and probably an even greater difference between good and poor presses. Forges and burners are a particular area of interest for me and I'm not aware of a well-sorted, commercially available ribbon burner forge over here. You are clearly not in the keen-but-horribly-skint category where unknown steels are the only credible option.

The VERY FIRST thing I'd be splashing out on is some tuition. Dave Budd has been suggested already. He's in Devon. Owen Bush runs a range of courses, including pattern-welding (I'm guessing that's where you are intending to go with the press?) in Kent.

There's a tendency (and I've been guilty of this) to think that having the kit is 90% of the job, when in fact it's more like 10% of the job and the other 90% is having the skills and knowledge to use it.
Hi, I am looking to do a course and I am not naive enough to think I can just start making award winning knives !!!! I know it will be a huge learning curve. I am going to visit Fransham Forge, where the Master Nigel Barnett offers courses. I will also look in to the courses offered by Owen Bush (Great name ...!!!!) . In finding the equipment I have researched heavily, but do favour smaller companies, reading reviews etc on them. I dont part with money easily ! I am just really looking forward to the adventure !!
 
Hello , i have question about steel s235JR, you all know what this JR means, “S235JR describes non-alloy structural steels and falls in Part 2 of the EN 10025 specification. The 'S' denotes a 'structural steel' with a yield strength of 235 MPa. The 'JR' designation confirms that the material has undergone a Charpy V-notch impact test at 27 joules at room temperature.”

Now i need to know if someone can explain to me why is stenght impact 27 joules , what characteristic or who and why they decide that it will bi minimum 27 joules, whay is not 13 joiles or 19.
If you understand my question

Thank you
 
It's pretty close to 20 foot pounds. So could just be backwards compatibility with a previous spec
 
Now i need to know if someone can explain to me why is stenght impact 27 joules , what characteristic or who and why they decide that it will bi minimum 27 joules, whay is not 13 joiles or 19.
When a structural engineer gets a project from an architect, he creates BIM of materials for the project. He uses the classification of steel for calculations and/or uses classes per calculation, as necessary. Not all steel is equal.
 
Hello , i have question about steel s235JR, you all know what this JR means, “S235JR describes non-alloy structural steels and falls in Part 2 of the EN 10025 specification. The 'S' denotes a 'structural steel' with a yield strength of 235 MPa. The 'JR' designation confirms that the material has undergone a Charpy V-notch impact test at 27 joules at room temperature.”

Now i need to know if someone can explain to me why is stenght impact 27 joules , what characteristic or who and why they decide that it will bi minimum 27 joules, whay is not 13 joiles or 19.
If you understand my question

Thank you
I am not sure I understand your question about “who decided the minimum impact strength is 27 Joules”. It sounds very much like asking who decided what time the sun sets on a given day.
A measurement scale is agreed upon and applied to the particular test subject, and the result is recorded. No one decides what the measurement quantity will be, it’s just an inherent property.

There are lots of pages that explain the Charley test, but this one has some measurements for different materials
 
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