So I thought I'd try a santoku...

I don't think the Japanese claim an advantage in edge retention for laminates--just reduced risks of chipping--but the harder steel allows a thinner edge to be retained.
I was just talking about what you posted, not what the Japanese claim. Hardness doesn't have anything to do with clad vs monosteel though and to a certain extent hardness will only allow you to go thinner if the steel has sufficient toughness otherwise that's where you will start to potentially get chipping/edge damage.

I think cladding has more to do with easier maintenance and a perceived superior product from the consumer, than chip resistance. That's why you rarely see carbon cladding vs stainless cladding.

Anyway that's just my 2c.
 
Great stuff! The Americanization of Kai kitchen knives into Shun was partly process and partly design, and was much more gradual and complex than I thought or realized when I first got interested seven years ago. The first Shun that got attention, and is still around, is the Shun Classic Chinese Cleaver. The two who really Americanized Kai products, as Shun evolved, were Bob Kramer, who came aboard with an already established collection, and Ken Onion, who had primarily worked with folding knives.

The signature high end Chef knife, first explicitly marketed as a fusion knife was the award winning Shun Fuji Chef knife--which I finally found a non nosebleed way to purchase several years ago. It's everything that I hoped for in a cultural fusion knife--and is the Chef knife in my home batterie. The most Americanized early Shun series was the Kaji--designed by Ken Onion, and fetching high prices as collector's knives these days. My Shun Kaji santoku hollow ground is a toned down Kaji currently still being marketed. These two knives in my batterie, the Fuji and Kaji, represent the American-Japanese cultural fusion I identify with.
So you're talking about American knifemakers/designers and Kai manufacture as a cultural fusion.
I am talking about the Gyuto blade profile adopted by KAI to match the German profles to allow for rock chopping, resulting
in Japanese knives that differ from tradional Gyuto profiles.
Two entirely different things.
 
So you're talking about American knifemakers/designers and Kai manufacture as a cultural fusion.
I am talking about the Gyuto blade profile adopted by KAI to match the German profles to allow for rock chopping, resulting
in Japanese knives that differ from tradional Gyuto profiles.
Two entirely different things.
No, I'm talking about the effort to integrate American cultural ideas with artisan traditions with specific examples of products that they developed along the way--and how it influenced me. The chef knife profile they developed for Kaji and Fuji were different from the arrtisan gyutos and European profiles--German and French. They were wider and heavier than the artisan gyuto with the durability and toughness of American hunting knives. The Shun classic and artisan series were the ones that looked to German products, but that evolution came from the Americanized Kaji and Fuji more than the Japanese artisan gyuto--which is one of the reasons they got in so much trouble with the knife enthusiasts.

The Miyabi knives developed with Zwilling feature a Chef knife that harmonizes western with artisan with a profile more like a gyuto. My Miyabi birchwood chef knife is much narrower than my Fuji.
 
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Ken Onion already had achieved recognition for his folded knives and survivalist products when he joined the team forming Shun--and his ideas were fresh. Some of his earliest designs were made into the first Shun Kaji. The Ken Onion Shun Kaji series was strongly supported by Kai management, but was just too American--even for American enthusiasts. There were also strong supporters--so:

Ken Onion left Shun and founded his own American company, with somewhat toned down versions of his Shun designs done in tool steel with interesting blade finishes. I bought two: a 9 inch "rain" slicer, and a small 3 inch "sky" detail knife at closeout prices. Great knives--though I only use the slicer when there is a turkey to carve. I use the detail knife frequently. Just like his Shun Kaji series, these Ken Onion products are already becoming collector's items.
 
I was just talking about what you posted, not what the Japanese claim. Hardness doesn't have anything to do with clad vs monosteel though and to a certain extent hardness will only allow you to go thinner if the steel has sufficient toughness otherwise that's where you will start to potentially get chipping/edge damage.

I think cladding has more to do with easier maintenance and a perceived superior product from the consumer, than chip resistance. That's why you rarely see carbon cladding vs stainless cladding.

Anyway that's just my 2c.
My rule of thumb is to use my softer monosteel Wusthof Classic Ikon for occasional heavy duty tasks, knowing that I can hone it back in place when it rolls, and my Shun Fuji laminate, with it's sg2 core, for everything else. So far, I've not experienced any chipping. The Fuji feels sharper, supports slicing and chopping, and weighs a little less. I'm not really knowledgeable enough to comment on the bigger picture.
 
The Ken Onion designed DM0500-0594 were were failures. The designs were very unique, too radical for cooking knives and were discontinued.
Ken Onion is a highly regarded outdoor/folding knife designer who did very well for the Kershaw brand. I have owned enough Blurs to atttest to that.
Kai's attempt to market his design for cooking knives however did not. It was an exercise in fusing Ken Onion's designs with Japanese manufacturing methods. Because his unique designs hardly represented American cooking knives they were not accepted by the American consumer. Kai retained the Kaji name for their current W-S exclusive and as they say it is a Japanese-European fusion.
 
The Ken Onion designed DM0500-0594 were were failures. The designs were very unique, too radical for cooking knives and were discontinued.
Ken Onion is a highly regarded outdoor/folding knife designer who did very well for the Kershaw brand. I have owned enough Blurs to atttest to that.
Kai's attempt to market his design for cooking knives however did not. It was an exercise in fusing Ken Onion's designs with Japanese manufacturing methods. Because his unique designs hardly represented American cooking knives they were not accepted by the American consumer. Kai retained the Kaji name for their current W-S exclusive and as they say it is a Japanese-European fusion.
Not failures at all. See the EBAY link--and the asking price. There was a famous Williams Sonoma video with the then president of KAI endorsing Ken and Kaji. The current Kaji is toned down, but so were the Ken Onion knives that Ken introduced with his company. Kai still believes in the ergonomics. See the Shun Nagare. One of the great things about Kai is their willingness to try out many concept products and then grow them as the market supports them.
 
Not failures at all. See the EBAY link--and the asking price. There was a famous Williams Sonoma video with the then president of KAI endorsing Ken and Kaji. The current Kaji is toned down, but so were the Ken Onion knives that Ken introduced with his company. Kai still believes in the ergonomics. See the Shun Nagare. One of the great things about Kai is their willingness to try out many concept products and then grow them as the market supports them.
Failure as a market product. Otherwise the line would not have been discontinued. And because it is discontinued those that are out there attain high prices from collectors. I don't doubt they were endorsed wheh they first came out, most newly introduced products are.
Ken Onion's knives are in your own words "toned down" and Kai's Kaji line follows an orthodox European blade profile. That;'s because the cooking knives Ken Onion designed for Kai were too far out there.

Honestly, I doubt very many, if any knifemakers or designers would look at that Ken Onion Kaji and say that it's a fusion of :American and Japanese elements. That's independent of what they may think of it as a cooking knife.

The Nagare line is far more orthodox.

I think you've made you point very clear that you are an extreme KAI fan,. And that's fine,. Kai is the laergest cutlery company in Seki, and all of Japan. Like all large companies some of their products score and some don't. Have a nice New Years.
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During the introduction period for Shun, many products were discontinued--but not usually product lines. I think Kaji was redesigned because Ken Onion left. Both Bob Kramer and Ken Onion made their creative contribution and moved on. Ken Onion did some further time and motion studies before he introduced his product lines, that included some newer models that weren't part of his Shun Kaji. He got into the knife sharpening business, and explored many other opportunities where his creativity was helpful. I enjoy using thre two Ken Onion knives I have.

The Kaji line is still not marketed in Europe; some products within the new Kaji have been discontinued--like the sg2 Cleaver. The Shun blue steel line was very popular with full time American workers, but discontinued any way--just reintroduced very recrently toward Shun's natural American demographic. From the very beginning, Shun has been marketed primarily to a United States higher end home user--not Europeans and not professionals. It still is that way.

The part that interests me is the cultural fusion they have been attempting to market--and the resistance of enthusiasts who only know about a few of their product lines.

See you next year!
 
Yup, its sharp View attachment 2433789

First time using it :rolleyes:

View attachment 2433787

Other than a paring knife here and there, I don't believe I've ever bought a kitchen knife. Always made do with hand me downs and gifts. Bought these two a couple of weeks ago. Nothing fancy or too extravagant. Zwilling Pro 6" Chef and the 6.5" Yaxell Mon santoku, a.k.a. "thumb killer"

View attachment 2433794

So far, I like the Zwilling better, but that's mostly because it hasn't attacked me :D

Merry (and hopefully not too bloody) Christmas! 🎄🤶⛪
This is a great comparison that highlights a battleground for Westerners trying to incorporate exciting Japanese kitchen knives into prep work for very different cuisine. We Westerners hae liked a little belly in our knives to facilitate rock chopping. Artisan knives in Japan had blades that are thinner and flatter than knives like your Zwilling; Japanese knife makers have attempted to find compromises, and the santoku has been a profile of choice for a compromise design--like your Yaxell Mon. The Shun label by Kai was one of the first to attempt cultural fusion by adding some belly to their santoku designs with their Classic, Premier, Kaji, and Fuji lines. They were very well received by American home cooks, but strongly criticized by Western enthusiasts--who demanded flatter and flatter profiles.

As a result, new Shun santoku lines have had profiles that are flatter and flatter. Ironically, a recent Shun Nagare that I purchased recently has a flatter profile than a Japanese HADO artisan knife that I also recently purchased.
 
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