Some Comments on the Busse Battle Mistress

[Hoodoo]

So m are you implying that we are not allowed to question the validity of Cliff's claims? That Cliff is so far above everyone else and his methods are so impeccable that he is beyond approach?

Anyone who makes the kind of claims that Cliff makes that directly impact people who make their living in the knife industry, then they should be held accountable for those claims. As a scientist, I have a first hand knowledge of the kind of data that is scientifically acceptable and what isn't. So far in this thread, I haven't seen anything you could publish in the funny papers let alone even come close to real science. I don't question that Cliff broke a sheath or that a handful of others broke sheaths as well. What I question is his grandiose extrapolations about how fragile they are. I really had a laugh when Cliff "the expert" didn't know the difference between Kydex and Concealex. If you are going to claim expertise, shouldn't you BE an expert?

Of course, you can believe what you want. And so can I. And one thing I do know is where science ends and BS begins.

------------------
Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

 

[m]

Hoodoo,
I like to read most of your stuff especially in the Wilderness forums, but it is obvious you got something against Cliff, and you ought to keep it to yourself. I don't know what you think he did to your Wheaties, but you don't need to try to discredit everything he does on these forums, it only makes you look bad, unless you state a good reason for disaggreeing with something specific.
And Cliff has never discouraged anyone from disaggreeing with his testing, in fact he has encouraged it and learned from it.If anyone has a better idea on how to test equipment of this sort by all means do it and share the results with us, don't just take pot shots at the people who do actually DO the testing.

 

[Hoodoo]

What testing are you referring to m? A few anecdotes and the one where a single sheath was tossed 6 feet? Is that what you call testing? Your standards are a lot different than mine. What was the thickness of the sheath? Was there a knife in it or not? Exactly HOW was it thrown, straight out, up, what? Was it brand new or used? And if ONE sheath breaks, does that mean that all KYDEX sheaths are so fragile? We are talking about thousands of Kydex sheaths out there. Can we extrapolate to big and little sheaths? Are they ALL made the same way? Don't you think those kinds of questions should be answered before you start bullheadedly proclaiming that KYDEX is so awfully fragile?

If you have a flat tire for no apparent reason on your car and the tires are brand new, do you proclaim to the world that that rubber tires are fragile?

As for improving the experiment, I know high school students that could come up with a better experimental design. The simplest, the one that every grad student SHOULD know (Ciff is a grad student, btw) and every undergrad science major learns as a freshman or sophomore is something called REPLICATION. Cliff is not a big believer in REPLICATION. Unlike scientists all over the world, Cliff is more than content with N=1. It's his trademark. Cliff can even go beyond that. Cliff can do N=0. Truly amazing "science." He can "test" knives just based on their picture.

And you know m, I don't give a rat's ass how bad you think I look.

------------------
Hoodoo

I get some pleasure from finding a relentlessly peaceful use for a combative looking knife.
JKM

 

[Gator97]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hoodoo:</font>

So m are you implying that we are not allowed to question the validity of Cliff's claims?
No,why would you think so, this is a free forum, everyone is free to express his/her opinion, in a polite manner, including Cliff, right?

That Cliff is so far above everyone else and his methods are so impeccable that he is beyond approach?
Relax, he's a mere mortal, just like you

Some think he's got more experience with knives than others, that's all to it. Nothing wrong with that anyways, right?

Anyone who makes the kind of claims that Cliff makes that directly impact people who make their living in the knife industry, then they should be held accountable for those claims.
From which we can conclude that the rest of people can say whatver they like, but shouldn't be held accountable, as long as they do not impact directly people in knife industry? Interesting idea

Fresh, and original.

As a scientist, I have a first hand knowledge of the kind of data that is scientifically acceptable and what isn't.
Hmm... Sciences are different? Therefore the data is different too? Is it some sort of generic criterion may be?

So far in this thread, I haven't seen anything you could publish in the funny papers let alone even come close to real science.
Well, that's not the intended use of this forum anyways. In case you are going to do that, I'll be only glad to read

I really had a laugh when Cliff "the expert" didn't know the difference between Kydex and Concealex. If you are going to claim expertise, shouldn't you BE an expert?
I must've missed that part

I mean where Cliff claimed to be an expert in that area, last thing I saw he was asking questions to Normark, right?
BTW should we assume that U are an expert in the same area? Since you can freely judge others...

Of course, you can believe what you want.
Exactly

No reason to get upset with nyone because of that..

And one thing I do know is where science ends and BS begins.

Sure you do. Philosophically speaking, that is what you think of yourself, and have a full right to do so

Except others can do the same, agree?

One thing is, Cliff has never laugs at others being experts, nor refers as BS to their messages. In the end i think you are taking this slightly personally and that is not scientific at all, please corect me if I am wrong

Somehow I didn't find anything scientific in your message, Cliff at least said few facts from his life, ad all you've done was "I'm smart and Cliff's not an expert"... Ok, he's not an expert, but I suspect that can hardly make you an expert in any area anyways, nor it will make you look more scientific.

------------------
zvis.com
Have Fun,
Alligator

[This message has been edited by Gator97 (edited 04-10-2001).]

 

[swede79]

Wow, such hostility, Hoodoo.

Maybe Cliff is or isn't an expert, but his tests are pretty thorough, and since he generally tests up to and including destruction, these can get expensive - especially for a grad student! So proving that Kydex is breakable (or a CS Trailmaster for that matter) only requires a sample size of 1.

I for one enjoy reading his tests, and have no vested interests one way or another. I fully understand if Eric/Normark gets a little defensive, if it were my product, I would, too. But he has been quite a gentleman about this, I suggest you learn from him.

If you can improve these tests, go for it! Nobody's stopping you, please, impress us with your scientific process! Just make sure you get your math right, being a mathematician myself, I'll be happy to proof your results.

You don't have to be a knife maker to be able to test a knife. Just ask a butcher...

 

[Normark]

Hey Guys...

Come on now....Ease up..

Cliff..

The difference between Kydex and Concealex is nothing that effects the end user other than appearence.

The difference is very slight working temps and a couple of quirks you may call them..

What the actual chemical composition is, or how the blends vary,,I don't know.

I have worked with both, but prefer to work with Concealex exclusively.

I have heard and I have absolutely No proof on this ,is that Concealex has been blended to be slightly softer. How much of this is true, I have No idea.

I do not have extensive knowledge of Kydex, so I won't comment any further on it.

The name Kydex is used as a generic term by some people in the industry.

I can't comment on what Edgeworks uses but it could be Kydex. There are several Grades of Kydex,to simplify things lets say, Grade A,B,C,D not meaning thickness, but more as in pureness and or rather blended formulation.

I know Blade-tech uses mostly Concealex and a version that looks similar as Kydex, as does Tac Tool, and River City.

As far as leather vs. Cordura vs Synthetics go. Safety wise, ease of carry, multiple carry options,,I'll take synthetics any day of the week.

I personally have experienced Very few problems with cracking or failure in general.

For the most part I believe that synthetics offer better protection and an all around better sheath, no matter who makes the sheath.

Would I drop a Danial Winkler blade into Concealex? Not likely.

It's not for all blades and leather,especially Custom leather Very much still has a place in the knife world. It's definately not the end all in sheathing material, but it is,,a very good sheathing material.

As far as flipping a blade into a sheath opposite from the way I do it. I see no practical purpose why. Makes no difference.

ttyle

Eric...


------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

[This message has been edited by Normark (edited 04-10-2001).]

 

[muzzleup]

Busse Battle Mistress "E":
I have owned one but did not keep it because it just did not fit my hands. They are good knives but having had both the Busse and the Becker knife and Tool knives I still think the the BK&T gives you more FOR YOU MONEY.

As far as sheaths goes...they are supposed to carry the knife safely and securly and enable a draw without too much difficulty. For synthetics I like Normarks for my own desires I like leather or leather with a synthetic insert or leather covered Concealex and I do my own leather work so I can do just about any kind I want.

Cliff...he just likes to see what it takes to break things!

Eric....a great sheath maker using synthetics!!

CIAO all and be nice to each other...its just a game, right

------------------
Ron,
Bremerton, Washington

 

[Andrew Lynch]

I think that Cliff is one of the very best knife testers. I've read many of his reviews, and they give you a really thorough picture of the knife. Some reviewers make it short and sweet, and don't say anything bad about the knife. This sounds good, but it doesn't give a good picture of the product. Cliff always suggests improvements or lists problem areas in the products. I think he just tells m' how he sees m'.

I can see Normark's side of the story too, though. I mean, if someone just comes out and says how he easily destroyed one of his products (or in this case, a similar product using the same or similar materials), it could get your blood running. I mean, this is how Normark makes a living, and I can understand his defensiveness when someone says how brittle kydex/concealex is in cold weather, and how easily they can then be destroyed. But, I don't think that it's any call to get hostile (by anyone...).

I suggest that, if anyone doubts Cliff's test, THEY should "REPLICATE" that test. Put as many types and sizes of kydex and concealex sheathes, do whatever you want to them, and at varing temperatures. Hey, have a field day! Test all you want if you so doubt Cliff's findings.

So, test the findings, don't fight over them!This could be a really informative and non-hostile post.

Anyway, that's how I see things.

 

[swede79]

This has been informative, even if hostile at times. Now I want to try a "Normark" for myself, I'll be getting in touch with you next month when some money frees up!

 

[GREENJACKET]

When you gentlemen have finished, will someone please answer my question: what glue works on kydex to fix cloth or such to it?

PS: can we keep science out of it. Someone might come up with an answer and that would be boring as there would be nothing worth bickering about.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I meant to put this in the last post but was pressed for time.

When I first commented about Kydex being fragile in cold weather Eric commented that the amount of force needed to cause a fracture was so great that it would cause significant personal injury :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">If it's on your person when it recieves Blunt Force Trauma enough to damage the sheath,,Fractures of the sheath will be the Very least of your problems,,as you possibly have other parts of your body Fractured...</font>

Obviously very different from my perspective. He also makes a number of decently strong performance statements which could be extreme (jumping on it on pavement is very different than on gravel for example) but in any case shows decent toughness. However when asked if he will guarantee these results the answer is no. When asked if his sheaths would no any better that the ones I tested the answer "probably", again no guarantee. Very different from the certainty of his earlier statements.

As for the questions about the drop for the TOPS and Becker, I know the distance and therefore can easily calculate the impact velocity and along with the mass thus have the energy. Did I calculate this, no. Why not? Well would it have made it any more meaningful to anyone if I said that the sheath broke after impacting with XXX J of energy, probably not. All that would be doing is transforming the units into ones that not as directly interpreted, no gain in information, in fact a loss.

Anyway, is this energy well defined. Well yes, the uncertainty in it is bounded by the uncertainty in the distance which is small, say 10% or so (the angle of the hit is also a factor but a large number of drops would get rid of this, which I would have done on the Becher sheath except it broke on the first hit). Now there can be a huge difference in the force recieved by the sheath even though the impact energy is very consistent because this depends on what the sheath impacts. If the sheath hits gravel it will recieve a very different force than if it hits rock, the difference is determined by the compressability which controls the time duration of the collision upon which the force is directly inversely proportional.

What does all that mean? Well that it is very different to drop a sheath on gravel than on rock and that if you are testing the resistance to impact do more than a couple of drops if you don't see failure. Well yes, just about anyone would know that even if ignorant of the "scientific" reasons. For the impacts I started out with gravel and rocks with the TOPS knife by later on with the Becker just used concrete as it was a worst case senario. I don't have much concern about the sheath breaking it if hits a snowbank, but do if it hits a rock / hardened metal etc. .

Is Kydex more brittle than Cordura and Leather, yes. Is it *far* more brittle, yes. Does this difference grow as the temperature drops, yes. Is it a significant change, *yes*. Will Kydex take functional damage from impacts before leather and Cordura will, yes. Is Kydex also far more sensitive to heat that Leather and Cordura, yes. Will Kydex deform under heat and lose functionality before leather and Cordura, yes.

The question you need to ask yourself - "is Kydex durable enough for me". My point was that for me it is not for a number of reasons primarily because I have seen failure during normal use (Busse Basic sheath, which upon further inspection is cracked in multiple places), and two failures under very low stress impacts (TOPS and Becker) as well have seen how it reacts to low temperatues in artifical conditions (dry ice, liquid n2). Secondly because I have heard of similar reports from others, and lastly I have discussed it with makers who have also commented that they have seen a number of brittle failures of Kydex.

In regards to the method I used to test impact toughness, I think it is reasonable to expect a sheath to survive a fall which is why I did it. I don't think it is extreme when compared to the stress it could actually see during use, something I might look at later on.

As for the comments about what I do in general, well thanks for the support. As for the critisms in general, the "unscientific" one, being the most common. Do a search and see if you can find this used when the described results are positive. You will not.

Ask yourself this, if I had done work showing how Kydex is superior to leather and Cordura (abrasion resistance, puncture resistance etc.) would Eric be complaining about how "unscientific" the work was, and would he be making personal comments as in the above? No, of course not.

I have never once seen such comments in regards to positive statements. Conclusion - it is not the method that causes concern simply the results, showing a clear bias.

I would however like to point out that it is *not* the case that everyone has a problem with recieving less than glowing comments. I just fired off three emails last week to three different makers discussing their work and it was all problems I had, over a dozen in one case. The result - it just resulted in a back and forth on how these problems could be solved and in some cases why they could not be for many reasons (money, or it would cause too much of a performance loss in another area).

In closing, if you have a problem with something I am doing either in method or the way it is being interpreted by all means drop me an email or make a post, same goes if you have contradicting information. One very helpful comment was recieved a short time ago which quite nicely solved a problem I had in regards to determining slicing ability in a very simple manner, which is obvious as all things are once pointed out. It allowed me to very simply determine the slicing ability as a function of applied force, and more importantly did so in a manner that it easily replicated by anyone who wishes to do so without any special equipment. It has lead to some interesting findings in regards to the "aggression" of various steels and how the slicing ability can vary tremendously even though the "sharpeness" is very consistent and how this difference tracks during blunting.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-12-2001).]

 

[Normark]

Hey Cliff...

Cliff..
I ask you to read outload to yourself the first quote you have of mine...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it's on your person when it recieves Blunt Force Trauma enough to damage the sheath,,Fractures of the sheath will be the Very least of your problems,,as you possibly have other parts of your body Fractured...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Make any more sense now ?

""""that it would cause significant personal injury :""""

Did I say Anywhere in that statement that it "would" cause?????

You really like putting words in my mouth don't you...

I said that "probably" my sheath would pass your toss test..Never did I say Anything about them being better...No different than my earlier statements... Nor did I guarantee they would...

This is what I mean Cliff,, you aren't precise enough to be doing Any kind of testing...

Obviously it was my sheath, I made it with my own hands..If I want to stomp on it,, I will..
Will I warranty you stopping on it...? Nope....

If on the other hand you want to purchase one of my sheaths,, you can do Whatever you want to it. Just don't expect me to replace it. I will now evoke the "Cliff Stamp clause" in my warranty. If Cliff has even touched it the warranty is void.

So it is your belief that tossing a sheath on cement is the same as wearing the sheath and falling on cememnt?


I will cover under warranty a fall on cement within the first year or so,,I will Not however cover stupidity.

A Cliff Quote..

"Ask yourself this, if I had done work showing how Kydex is superior to leather and Cordura (abrasion resistance, puncture resistance etc.) would Eric be complaining about how "unscientific" the work was, and would he be making personal comments as in the above? No, of course not. "

This is Always the statement you fall back on Cliff...It shows just how your mentality works.

BTW Synthetics Are superior to leather and cordura under certain circumstance.. Not everyone,, but most.

Why would I disagree with something I agreee on...??

Give your head a shake man...


"I have never once seen such comments in regards to positive statements. Conclusion - it is not the method that causes concern simply the results, showing a clear bias."

Again why would someone question your positive statements....Unless they were Really Skewd.

And yes Cliff,, it is the methods...
Get it through your head Cliff.It's Not the results...

I've witness many verbal firefights between you and several other people concerning your "methods" and data collection...

I'm not the only one Questioning your "methods" Cliff...

I could give a Rats A$$ what your findings are Either way. They mean Absolutely nothing to me. I Don't hold your as an authority on anything.I've read some of your reviews and find nothing overly exciting in them.

Your just some guy with time on your hands trying to carve an name for yourself on Bladeforums, Knifeforums, Rec.knives, and wherever else you may frequent.

It would be interesting to see how many Gigantic Holes could be Blown into your testing by a "Real" expert in the field of testing.

For the most part my 8 year old son could replicate the "testing" you are doing, and collect about the same type of data.

As for the manufacturers who turn you down for your testing,, they probably feel the same way I do about your testing being a Moot point. I'm not afraid of your testing,, I just think it's meaningless, Carries Very little weight, and at times is Downright dangerous and Childish.

Again I just want to make sure you and everyone else reading this understands I have Nothing against you personally,, I just don't like having words put in my mouth and being taken out of context.....

Ok,,so you've tested a few sheaths by throwing them around, they broke,,maybe some didn't,, who cares. Means nothing...

I'm sure for the majority of people who aren't Walking Disaster Areas on these forums that Any sheath be it Leather, Nylon, Kydex, Concealex or Kryptonite are working hard for them day in and day out. The few that have problems will be taken care of by their respective manufacturers...

Ask Any of my customers if they haven't been treated fairly, or have had any problems with any of my products,Taken Care of.. You won't find any....

Anything,, no matter what it is can be taken to the point of destruction, whether you do it in 5 minutes or five days it pointless.

It would sure be nice to have somthing hand made by you, that we could "test" LOL

Be interesting to see how it would hold up...

With all due respect..

Eric E. Noeldechen

------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

 

[HJK]

I don't like to see this. Actually, I hate to see this. I thought I was getting some useful info about kydex, concealex and their limitations, and some real world problems, albeit in extreme circumstances, and some intelligent rebuttal but now it's degenerated into ad hominem irrelevence. And some of it is coming from one of the nicest guys here. That's a shame.
If this thread comes back to earth I'll look in again. For now, IMHO it's useless and depressing because it got personal. Echh.

[edited for typos only]



[This message has been edited by HJK (edited 04-12-2001).]

 

[Normark]

Hey HJK...

I agree,, thats the last I'll have of it as well...

I just don't like being misquoted,in saying this was said and that was said,when it clearly wasn't..

I know I don't Twist words...

ttyle

Eric...


------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Erik :

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Did I say Anywhere in that statement that it "would" cause?</font>

No, you basically came on very strong presenting a viewpoint in contradiction to what I stated and then when asked if you would support the statements you made backed out under words like probably / could / might etc. .

To be fair, you are hardly the only one making claims and not supporting them and in general it is not uncommon for makers to do this and they give the same argument that you made. I can do this but you can't. I am the maker and you are not.

My viewpoint is quite simple. If you are presenting your product as having some ability illustrating it by example - and you do not allow this to be verified by the consumer you are spreading hype. However as stated above, this is hardly a uniform opinion in both the makers and the knife buying public.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">So it is your belief that tossing a sheath on cement is the same as wearing the sheath and falling on cememnt?</font>

Depening on how you impact it will either be more or less stressful. If during the fall you can brace yourself the impact will be minor. If any part of your body hits before your hip same thing that will absorb the majority of the impact. However if your hip hits first it is quite likely that the sheath can sustain the majority of the impact and now it has the full force of your body weight behind it not just the weight of the blade. And besides you could easily take an impact from a stick or whatnot that would be far more stressful than simply dropping the sheath.

Upon reading this it seems like I am falling down on a regular basis. Well no, I think twice this winter. Both under very low visibility conditions in uncertain terrain where I was moving faster than I probably should have. The snow comes up very quicky here and it can go from fine to zero visibility very quickly, much faster than the time it takes me to walk out of the woods (0.5 - 1.5 hours). Usually it is sensible to take shelter or wait but sometimes these conditions can go on for quite some time. In any case the possiblity exists which is why I am interested in it. I don't have to have something happen on a regular basis in order to take steps to safeguard against it.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Again why would someone question your positive statements.</font>

Lets assume as according to you that my methods are not sound and therefore the results that they give not meaningful. Then your willingness to overlook this when I conclude something that you agree with (using faulty methods) shows your strong bias. If there is a fault in the method you should point this out irregardless of the conclusion reached. If you don't you are simply allowing your product to be promoted on false merits - which again is hype.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">It would sure be nice to have somthing hand made by you, that we could "test"</font>

I send out blades frequently and most have had extensive modifications made to them by me. Three machetes in the past three weeks. I think you can expect comments on two of these. One of them I lost contact with the person, my fault as I sent it out like 3 months after I said I was going to and his email has changed.

As for fully making a blade, I don't think I will be doing this anytime soon as the cost of the equipment would be far greater than me simply getting the blades made and there is hardly a shortage of custom makers for me to work with.

You do bring up an interesting point however, if I ever did get into the knife making business (which is *far* from likely) I would not have much ground to stand on in terms of warrenty and product support, and odds are the blades would get a fair going over.

-Cliff


[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 04-12-2001).]

 

[Ustulina]

I think I share this opinion with a couple of others:

1) Eric has an excellent reputation as a sheathmaker.

2) Cliff writes interesting reviews

3) it is amusing and also depressing to see a couple of grown men (Canadians no less) kicking sand on each other. If I recall correctly, Billy Martin died several years ago, and he was the all-time classic sand kicker king. You two need to understand that you are not Billy Martin.

Kydex works great for me. I also like the hell out of leather sheaths. Do not like cordura nylon, but see that it has it's place. Naugahyde ain't bad neither.

Andrew

 

[HJK]

HEY CLIFF!
The bell rang and you're still throwing punches

 

[Normark]

Cliff....


""No, you basically came on very strong presenting a viewpoint in contradiction to what I stated and then when asked if you would support the statements you made backed out under words like probably / could / might etc. .""

Sorry to crontadict you Cliff... LMAO

I support my statement,,always have and always will.. Never backed down from ANYTHING I said..

My warranty is as stated.. Whether I said Probably, Maybe or whatever doesn't change Anything...

My sheath will probably pass your test..Can I say it will for sure and will I guarantee it will?? No.

Is that stated simple enough for you Cliff??

""To be fair, you are hardly the only one making claims and not supporting them""

Am I really making claims that I'm not supporting? or is that just what you happen to be stuck on...

My warranty states...

"If you break it in the first year, I'll fix or replace it" after that time I may or may not replace under the original warranty...

Anyone that knows me,,knows me to be a fair and honest person...

My warranty doesn't always end after 365 days..

""and in general it is not uncommon for makers to do this and they give the same argument that you made. I can do this but you can't. I am the maker and you are not.""

I also said if you purchase it,, as I have told you over a year ago when we had our last little thing like this on rec.knives,,,that if you purchase it,,Feel free to do what you will..

This is also the same lame excuse you use when manufactures turn you down when you go begging for test subjects.


""My viewpoint is quite simple. If you are presenting your product as having some ability illustrating it by example - and you do not allow this to be verified by the consumer you are spreading hype.""

I think I'll let my products and customer base speak for my products.. I don't have to.

Besides,,this has Nothing to do with me,,you've just managed to Twist it that way..


""Depening on how you impact it will either be more or less stressful. If during the fall you can brace yourself the impact will be minor. If any part of your body hits before your hip same thing that will absorb the majority of the impact. However if your hip hits first it is quite likely that the sheath can sustain the majority of the impact and now it has the full force of your body weight behind it not just the weight of the blade. And besides you could easily take an impact from a stick or whatnot that would be far more stressful than simply dropping the sheath.""

Careful Cliff,, now it starts getting slippery....

Now you are bring all kinds of variables and What-Ifs into the equation...
We are talking about a simple sheath thrown on a simple concrete driveway..

Nothing more and nothing less...


No one said anything about sticks and gravel and snow and your Lewis and Clarking it in your backyard winter wonderland..

""Lets assume as according to you that my methods are not sound and therefore the results that they give not meaningful. Then your willingness to overlook this when I conclude something that you agree with (using faulty methods) shows your strong bias. If there is a fault in the method you should point this out irregardless of the conclusion reached. If you don't you are simply allowing your product to be promoted on false merits - which again is hype.""

WoW,now you are getting deep...

If for instance you said synthetics are a good sheathing material, that has it's limitations under certain circumstances.

Yes I would agree with you,, other than that,,LOL thats about it...

Like I said a couple of pages ago,, we can go Round and Round about this Cliff..
You have your views on the matter, whatever,, I don't care..

After 3 pages of back and forth bickering on the subject, we aren't any further than we were when we started, and very likely now some people think we are both idiots...

Nothing was learned by this,, certianly no valuable data was ingested by the readers of this board..

When I find a better synthetic product to make sheaths from, you bet I'll be using it..

Until then,, expect me to be Not far Away.

ttyle

Eric...

------------------
On/Scene Tactical
Leading The Way In Quality Synthetic Sheathing

 

[HJK]

Me give up. Me go away for a while
[hold the cheering down out there...]

 

[456]

I have a survival knife made by the Dutch company Hill Knives. It is equiped with a Lexan sheath which is industractable.It doesn't break in the cold, or meld in heat.It holds the knife (7.5 inch blade)secure in any position. The straps and stitching are top quality. The sheath protects you in any circumstance. Take a look at www.hillknives.com, military knives.