V-Gar system

B

BillinPittsburg

Joined
May 27, 2002
Messages
27
I read with interest the description of the V-Gar system, with the manrikigarrote hidden inside the hollow belt, on the JSP Blade Rigger home page.

Such a device would prove significantly more effective than a knife of legal configuration in the hands of someone familiar with the nunchaku, or with improvised belt techniques. If it could be pulled from the belt quickly (any comments here?), that would add more to its effectiveness.

My biggest question about this system is legality of carry. Suppose one were stopped by a police officer while wearing the V-Gar system, and the officer was able to spot the manrikigarrotte. How would one explain the manrikigarrote (which would appear to a large extent to be a flailing and choking device, in addition to its potential for blocking and armlocks) to the officer in a manner that would emphasize a benign, non-weapon purpose for carrying it?

Thanks for any input.
 
Having received my v-gar system about a week ago, I learned from a follow-up phone call to James that even police patting down a partner who was wearing the v-gar system was unable to detect it on his person. As far as the legality of the system I have not tested nor asked about it in my state. (WV) However a few law enforcement friends in the Charleston, WV , area were much suprised to find the sytem on me after being invited to pat me down several times and then being told to actually find the v-gar system on my body and then never find it until being shown! I might ad these friends are very intelligent and savvy individuals. I reccomend this system due to it's completeness and ease of deployment and the many methods of carry included in the total package! How did I do without this for so long I do not know!
I feel unless you were arrested and strip searched that it will not be noticed. Heck my wife the tightest woman in the world with the check book and credit card, and might I add never and I mean never misses anything, has yet to see that I am wearing the system. She just thinks it's a new belt with a stash pocket and this conclusion was derived after handling and trying it on as well. She reads these posts as well so I guess the cat is out of the bag now, sorry Kimberly!
 
Pennsylvania - Pa. C.S.A. 18.908. Prohibited offensive
weapons. (a) Offense defined.--A person commits a
misdemeanor of the first degree if, except as authorized
by law, he makes, repairs, sells, or otherwise deals in,
uses, or possesses any offensive weapon. (b) Exception.--
It is a defense under this section for the defendant to
prove by a preponderance of evidence that he possessed of
dealt with the weapon solely as a curio or in a dramatic
performance, or that he possessed it briefly in
consequence of having found it or taken it from an
aggressor, or under circumstances similarly negativing any
intent or likelihood that the would be used unlawfully.
(c) Definition.--As used in this section "offensive
weapon" means... any... dagger, knife, razor or cutting
instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic
way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or
otherwise...

Thought this might help as far as PA law goes.
Still I would prefer to be judged by twelve than carried by six!
 
Originally posted by BillinPittsburg
Such a device would prove significantly more effective than a knife of legal configuration in the hands of someone familiar with the nunchaku...
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No, I don't think it would at all. The Nunchaku is a flexible weapon primarily used as an impact weapon, secondarily used as a flexible, i.e., blocking, parrying and choking weapon.

It does not have the mass that 50% of a single stick in the Nunchaku has and the speed of Titanium in this thinner and more narrow stock cannot make up for the lack of weight no matter how hard you swing it.

It will hurt like all hell if you were to get cracked in the crown of the head, but I do not believe it would knock a person unconscious. Therefore, it would not be more effective than even the smallest edged weapon in the grand scheme of things.

...or with improvised belt techniques.
Click to expand...

Now you are on to something a lot better, but I don't think that is inherently more effective than even the smallest edged weapon. There is also a dramatic learning curve involved with any flexible weapon and the V-Gar is no exception.

If it could be pulled from the belt quickly (any comments here?), that would add more to its effectiveness.
Click to expand...

It is lightning fast, you have to practice with it like anything else, but once you have and you maintain a level of skill, it is as fast as you want it to be.

I've had them for a few years now and done demos of them as well. It is not the "striker" that everyone thinks it is...but most certainly has merit as a minimal striking/maximum parrying-redirecting and trapping/choking device.
 
Richrogan,

Thanks for the information.

You were correct to focus right in on Sec. 908. The broader sec. 907 has been interpreted by the courts to require some showing of criminal intent. The rest of the definition of offensive weapons in sec. 908 is:

"Any bomb, grenade, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun with a barrel less than 18 inches, firearm specially made or specially adapted for concealment or silent discharge, any blackjack, sandbag, metal knuckles, dagger, knife, razor or cutting instrument, the blade of which is exposed in an automatic way by switch, push-button, spring mechanism, or otherwise, or other implement for the infliction of serious bodily injury which serves no common lawful purpose."

A couple of impact weapons are named, but nothing really similar to the manrikigarrotte. That last catchall provision is the one that concerns me the most. Here is where the non-weapon explanation becomes critical.

Caselaw interpreting this section includes the acquittal of a martial artist who was arrested carrying a nunchaku in his back pocket, when he proved that he was on his way to the dojo where he was a student, for the specific purpose of training with the nunchaku. Had be been arrested at a different time and place, that would have been a conviction.

In PA, I can legally carry a gun, so that is obviously my weapon of choice. With my PA, FL, and NH licenses, I can legally carry a gun in about 20 states, not a single one of which borders PA. So, my interest in the V-Gar is primarily for out-of-state travel. However, the same basic principles would likely apply.

I hope Kimberly knows that you appreciate her budgeting skills, so you don't end up in the guest room! ;-)

Don Rearic,

Thanks for the specifics about the manrikigarrotte's characteristics. Although I expected more capability as an impact weapon than what you found, I agree with you that it has some excellent potential for blocking, trapping, and choking, and still like the overall concept very much.

Although more training is always better regardless of the weapon, I understand what you mean about the learning curve for flexible weapons as opposed to edged weapons. I have personally seen a kitchen knife used very effectively by a completely untrained person to drive off an attacker (he wisely fled after almost getting his hands sliced to ribbons while trying to grab the knife). I am trained with a nunchaku, and have a basic familiarity with improvised belt blocking, trapping, and choking techniques. Although they are certainly effective in the right situation, there is no way they will work without proper instruction and a lot of practice.

To all:

What are your preferences re: the V-Gar 1 belt (velcro) v. the V-Gar 2 belt (velcro + a D-ring)? Is JSP selling the leather V-Gar 3 belt (leather version of the V-Gar 2) yet? If so, has anyone tried it?

Thanks again for your input.
 
Originally posted by BillinPittsburg
Thanks for the specifics about the manrikigarrotte's characteristics. Although I expected more capability as an impact weapon than what you found...
Click to expand...

Thank you. The Manrikigarrotte has some potential in that area, but it is nothing you want to bet your life on because you cannot ever bet your life on pain compliance. Not everyone registers pain or certain degrees of it and some simply fight through it. That is why I don't think it is wise to start flailing away with the MG in the hopes they will go, "Ow, ow, ow, that hurts like hell and I have a few knots on my head, I'm going away now..." Because the moment you do that, you're screwed when you run into someone that can take it.

Now, as a handheld impact weapon, it shines on one end, the Teardrop portion that is actually the Titanium "weight." It is semi-pointed but not "needle" pointed and when held in the hand, it is like a mini-pocket stick but very nasty in what it can do.

Again, I don't want anyone hitting me on top of the head with anything in a whipping fashion like that, but that does not mean it would knock me out either and that is the key point.

I agree with you that it has some excellent potential for blocking, trapping, and choking, and still like the overall concept very much.
Click to expand...

It is almost frightening the way it can strip knives if you know what you are doing with it. And the simplistic appearance is very deceptive. Back a few years ago, I stripped an aluminum training knife from a partner with a little too much gusto and left the nastiest, golfball-sized bruise you would ever want to see on his wrist. It has alot of power.
 
Bill,
I went with the leather-3 as my first choice though I was glad to have purchased the velcro only belt as well. It's a toss up for me as to my favorite. The leather belt does get a slight nod in the appearance category when going out on the town vs. a web belt with dress slacks, just not my style. rich
 
I'm going to second Don about the V-gar.

I have mine and i love it. As for the police not noticing it on a pat down, depends on the cop. If a realy careful policeman pats you down "by the BOOK" its likely he will find it.

For legality, most states have a similar catch all provision at the very end of the weapons statutes like "or any other deadly or dangerous device" or "any other martial art weapon" so they can widen the net op power they have for prosecution.

once the policeman finds you in violation of a weapon ordinance thats probable cause to engage in a deeper search(gloves and lube...kidding) of your posessions and possibly your car if its nearby for officer safety.

If the v-gar ever saw the inside of a court room on a charge of carrying a consealed weapon, i think a jury would convict you.
Its a garrotte. Its cool, effective and consealable, but the porsecutor is going to crucify you. I know, I know, its a manrikigusari...Its a garrotte. sorry, but thems the breaks.

My advice, don't get caught.

I agree with the assessment of the caselaw on the carrying of martial art weapons that was raised. on the way to and from the dojo is ok. in other situations, it looks like a conviction.

if you are an EMT, it could serve as an emergency tournaquett, so you have that, or if you are walking a dog, an emergency leash. those explinations are, to me, thin.

I say again, don't get caught. ;) ;)

I have used the nylon belt and the leather one. I like the leather one better, but i have the nylon one kicking around as a reserve.

I've used the pouches too, and they work well. i have a pouch pinned to the inside of a jacket pocket with a v-gar inside it as an extra.
 
Thanks to all who replied.

Looks like we all agree that the V-Gar system is effective, and that the leather belt is the best option (leather works with jeans, nylon web does not work with dress slacks). Also looks like the best answer to the legal question is discretion.
 
a question: How would the effectivness of this system (or a similar system) change if instead of the cable, a stiffer material was used, so it would act like a very flexible stick with the weight on the end of it. (but was still belt concealable)

And does James take suggestions?
 
My best guess is that effectiveness for striking would be unchanged, but effectiveness for trapping limbs would be significantly decreased.
 
That sounds about right as far as increasing striking power would decrease the flexible attributes. :)

James takes suggestions...but why fix it if it is not broke? A small Titanium load is only going to be so effective in any format. I've had these V-Gars for quite some time and I'm telling you from firsthand experience...if you get someone who is not impressed on the street and you hit them in the head with an MG...they're not going down, they're going to be extremely pissed.

A couple years ago, James made a run of MGs with a steel Teardrop but with the same, basic dimensions as the Ti version. It still did not have the power to do the degree of damage that many would think. The next step up would be a hard brass alloy and then lead... I would imagine if you made a "lead Teardrop," it would only weight about 4 ounces max. That is getting into knockout territory but that is still iffy...

If the Teardrop were twice as thick and made out of lead, now you are most certainly in the knockout realm. Remember, speed with a Titanium stick is something else entirely. James makes a 12 inch Ti stick that will crack your egg. But that is not the Teardrop in the MG...

The speed you can achieve with the MG is not sufficient to propel that very light Teardrop at "knockout velocity." I don't know...maybe a Dude who was 6'6" could do it or something...
 
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