Confusing balisong terms

ixpfah

ixpfah

Joined
Oct 8, 2001
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CAUTION!
I realize that I could be wrong about a lot of things here. If I am, please tell me, and I'll spank myself and correct the mistakes. ;)

If you think about some of the common balisong terms, some of them don't always make much sense... Allow me to list a few.

  1. Dual/second tang pin - The reason I started thinking of this, is if a bali has a Zen Pin (see below), and instead of a kick it has a 'second' tang pin.
    (Now please note that the pics of a zen pin bali published so far, don't have a kick or a second tang pin. See the picture linked to below. What should we call that sort of kick/second tang pin solution? Kick-/second tang pin-less? :rolleyes: )
    Anyway, if this sort of design was created (i.e. a balisong with a zen pin, but with a second tang pin instead of being a kick-/second tang pin-less), there couldn't be a second pin. And you can't really call it a tang pin either, because
      a) It would get confused with the 'correct' tang pin
      b) It's not even ON the tang!

    So perhaps a better name for it would be 'recasso pin'?
  2. Tang stamp - TANG stamp... When these terms were invented, didn't they know the difference between the ricasso and the tang? Or wasn't the term ricasso invented by the time?
    (Just for the record, I browsed a bit in 'The balisong manual' by Jeff Imada, and on page 14 I see that they use 'tang' about the recasso... Maybe that's the reason.)
    Anyway, since the TANG stamp is on what we today call the RICASSO, wouldn't it be more logic to call it a RICASSO stamp?
  3. Zen pin - Oh what the hell, let's take this one as well (no, I do not intend to mock you or something, Mykl, I just wish to sort some things out :)).

    (For those of you that doesn't know what a so called 'zen pin' is, check out this picture, or read the first 2 pages of this thread.)

    I guess a 'zen pin' would mean 'no (tang) pin', a 'tang pin-less'. But could it be called something else?
    What do we know about it? It's not a pin, but it's on the tang. So if it's not a pin, what is it? Some sort of a protuberance? 'Tang protuberance'? :p (I'm sure some of you can come up with a better word, my english vocabulary isn't that great...) If that's the alternative, I guess the zen pin is a better suggestion. I, and possibly a lot of others, wouldn't bother to say tang protuberance when I can just say zen pin. ;)
    [/list=1]
    Now I leave it to you. I'm sure there are other terms that you find pretty confusing too.
    Do you know any 'nonsense' balisong terms?
    Do you have explanations/comments for the 'bogous' terms already mentioned by me or others?
    Are there any unique parts/styles on a balisong that so far doesn't have a name, that you would like to be the first to name? (When the bali is lying in specific directions, e.g. the angle between the handles are 55°, between the bite handle and the blade is 108° and so on, doesn't count, of course. ;) Nor does manipulation techiques and so on.) An example to this, could be the already mentioned 'kick-/second tang pin-less' solution on the 'zen pin' bali.

    May the discussion begin!
    Maybe some of the good ol' terms have to be changed or updated, and maybe some unknown have to be named.

    The word is yours. :)
 
ixpfah, this is a subject that should, nay, needs to be discussed. :D

I like the term Zen Pin very much. But perhaps "kick-pins" would better encompass what it is... (refering to your linked pic). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the term "kick" has less to do with the piece of metal, and more with the function. Plus kick-pins just rolllllls off the tongue. :)
 
It is just my opinion, but I, for one, don't like the term "zen pin" for several reasons.

First. There is no pin. That's the whole point. So, why even use the word "pin?"

Second I know that for some people, the term "zen" sort of creates that meaning of "no". But that is a slang usage. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, zen is a noun, not an adjative or adverb, and it means

A school of Mahayana Buddhism that asserts that enlightenment can be attained through meditation, self-contemplation, and intuition rather than through faith and devotion and that is practiced mainly in China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam.
Click to expand...

I don't see how that really fits to describe the tang design of a balisong.

Yes, I know that zen Buddists have this sort of meaning of "nothingness" or even "non existance." But, that sense, that meaning, is very narrow to that culture.


Finally, the whole point of BM's new design is that it doesn't have a pin. It doesn't need a pin. A pin is not involved. A pin is not needed. I don't see the need to keep dragging the pin back into the picture. I don't refer to my car as a "zen horse buggy." No, the mechanical engine is a new way to solve the transporation problem. It doesn't need a horse. It's doesn't involve a horse. To call it a "zen horse buggy" would be to drag the horse back into the picture. It would be to imply that it is somehow wrong or improper to have transporation without a horse. (Yes, I know that cars were refered to as "horseless carriages" for some time. But, as you can see, that term didn't stick either. Eventually, people realized that they didn't need to cleeve eternally to the horse paradigm. When they started to mentally separate horses from transporation, it became possible to separate the horse from the carriage and even to separate the riage from the car and we today drive around in cars.)

BM is not the first to come up with an approach that allows the balisong knife to reliably lock open without a tang pin.

Yesterday, as I was talking with an aspiring custom maker on the phone about latches, I thought, "I should round up all of the different latch variations I have, there must be ten or twelve at least, take pictures of them all, and write an article on latches." Perhaps I should to do the same for tang stops.
 
Great topic! One other thing I would like addressed is the term "grind" or more importantly "blade grind." I have no idea what this means!

The particular "grind" I would like addressed is "hollow grind." I have a strange suspicion this refers to the way the blade is sharpened. And a "hollow grind" is curved kind of how a straight-razor is shaped. Right? Wrong? Anyone?
 
Yes, the word "grind" is used very loosely to refer to just about any aspect of the shape of the blade.

Personally, I prefer the word "profile" for the overall shape of the blade. I don't usually say "utility grind," or "bowie grind" as some people do, but "bowie profile."

Personally, I prefer the word "edge" to refer to how the edge is ground. I don't usually say, "15 degree grind," or "zero bevel grind" as some people do but "15 degree edge."

Some people use the term "grind line" to refer to any inflection in the blade's surface, especially a major inflection near the middle. I usually prefer the terms "character line" and "median ridge".

There are some specific terms, "Hollow grind", "flat grind", "chisle grind" that have specific meanings.

It can be very confusing. The BM49's blade is a kris grind, hollow grind (a double hollow grind, in fact) and a zero-bevel grind.

But, keep in mind that I am a very sort of a particular person about these sorts of things. Others may prefer less strict usage.
 
Oh, by the way, my friend Professor Roland Phlip wrote a nice article that is a basic discussion of common blade grinds, hollow ground, flat ground, etc. It's not exhaustive by any means. It's on my site.
 
Originally posted by bloodyknuckles
One other thing I would like addressed is the term "grind" or more importantly "blade grind." I have no idea what this means!
Click to expand...
Fear not, young warrior!
I asked the same thing in one of the Venturi threads, and got the folowing URLs as referance:
  • http://members.tripod.com/razorcentral/grind.html
  • http://www.bladeforums.com/features/faqbladegeo3.shtml
  • http://www.balisongcollector.com/grinds.html
Hope this helps. :)

Originally posted by Blasto
But perhaps "kick-pins" would better encompass what it is...
Click to expand...
I kinda like 'kick-pins'. At least it's helluva lot easier to say than tang protuberance. ;) :D
But like Chuck said, it's not pins, so it's not that valid. But what about tang-kick? :) Or just some random word: kowui, for instance. ;)
 
nice topic...Personally I like the Zen Pin idea but I never said it was the best idea just no one else suggested anything...I'm currently going through a Zen period in my life rediscovering myself or lack of self. I did think that it has pins but could be wrong and they do serve the same function as the traditional tang pin. Kick-pin sounds good since it does serve that function as well.

The tang stamp thing I never really thought about before it is kinda interesting...hmmm I don't know.

"Zen horse buggy" does sound strange and is a valid point however I do think I'll start refering to my car as such.

and Ix no offense taken, this is a place to exchange ideas freely...I'd never want to impede that.
 
I too am not down with Zen pin - but doesn't it still require pins? From the picture and my mental idea of how it works is that now the pin in the tang has been removed and replaced by two pins, one in each handle that contact the ricasso. Is that right? Maybe call them stop pins or something.
 
Yeah, I didn't think about the pins inside the handle at first... Thanks for pointing that out for me.

Stop pins?? How unique... :rolleyes: ;)
I'm sure this will be discussed further. :D
 
I like Zen Pin. I think it's gonna have to go just on the grounds that I dont want to have to expain it to people over and over and over (dont get me wrong I dont mind explaining things I just hate repition:barf: ) Tang stops, maybe?

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, zen is a noun, not an adjative or adverb
Click to expand...

Tang is a noun too, no? :cool: anyways...what is it about tang pins around here?:confused:

Like I said before with all the awsome things going on in the world of the bali do we realy want to sit around here and talk about 381 ways to call something and wich is most proper? Borring!

I'm just gonna stop before I slip into a full blown rant.:mad: :barf: :rolleyes:

Endding on a happy note: I'm gonna actualy try to make my bali next month!:D :D :D
 
Originally posted by ixpfah
Yeah, I didn't think about the pins inside the handle at first...
Click to expand...

That was kind of what I was getting at. :rolleyes: :D Pins are very much involved, and I don't really know why, but to me, the word "stop" should be used if the stopping is done by a device in the middle of the bali, and "kick" when it is on the edges. Again, I have no logic to back up my opinion, so it's just that, an opinion. But damnit, it just sounds right! :confused:
 
They don't really have to be pins, either, but a milled part of the handle, but pins are nicer if you have ro replace them later...

I wonder of they may just have something there...???
Dispersing the force between two pins instead of one...???
It's kinda Zen..;)
 
All this time I thought Tang was a breakfast drink.
Mr. Gollnick, does your car have any "horsepower"?;) Sorry folks, I can't help it.
 
Navajo :).., not only does my truck have horsepower.., but it also dog-tracks cause the frame is bent...arrrrrrgh! I think I'm up for a Zen-Mobile!


"Hunters seek what they [WANT].., Seekers hunt what they [NEED]"
 
Mr. Gollnick, does your car have any "horsepower"?
Click to expand...

Horsepower? Horsepower???

Oh, yes. Now I remember that term. The modern unit is Kilowatts. ;)
 
Chuck and all -- great posts to this topic, I'm enjoying all of them-- particularly the point that many have made that "I'm not an expert" !! Lots of you folks are "experts" IMHO. Reckon we all can learn from each other. Until I learn more, I'll just lurk a lot and ask questions. Thanks for you're help. :)
 
Well, time to get down to the particulars.

Those darn Tang thingys: Since BM has decided to executed the design by placing those things away from the tang and into the handles, USING PINS, we'll need to call them xxxx pins. OK, the total Zen thing only gets a minor audience, but the "tang pinless pins" part of it is very valid. And until we can get comfortable in what they are called (and BM has not released what to call them), I don't mind calling them under the Project name of "Zen Pins".

They are kick pins in that the kick is now gone, and those pins have replaced it in BM's design. Should someone one decide to milled those functions into the handle, they can then be called kick tabs. If someone decides to not place those kick pin in the "pinched when handles are closed" style as BM has done, but rather in the "pinched when the handles are open" design (as in the other side of the handle) kick pins won't work (as the regular kick will be back to do it's job and it'll have to be a full channel milled handles with channel walls for the kick to rest on), as those pins are now exerting pressure on the real tang ends.... (OK, you'll have to think about that for a bit, I can feel I lost half the class).

As for the Ricasso thingy: that term only applies if and when there is a bolster seperating the end of the grind line for flat non-ground area of the blade. Since Bali's don't have "bolsters" per se (although many of the old timers called the front dovetails of the insert version of the Customs "bolster" for lack of a better term, kinda like that tang pinless pin debate) that whole flat part of the blade is more correctly called the "tang". Since by definition, the tang is:
That part of the blade that is either fastened between scales to make the handle or goes through a hole in the handle material. Also the part of a pocket knife blade that is between the handles.
Click to expand...
. Well, not a good definition for a bali, as per the last part of that definition, the blade now becomes the tang when the handles are closed. Point? Bali's don't fit into the general Western definitions of how the sum of the parts makes up a knife. It's a very "grey area" kinda of a thing. Since tradition has us calling those things "Tang stamps", I'll just follow suit.

Grind vs profile: My interptation of this (as I've come to understand it from all those discussions with knifemakers) is simple. Profile is the overall shape of the blade (Utility vs Bowie vs Tanto). When a maker executes an unique grinding style to a profile he usually gets to name it (as is the case with the Weehawk), however, he is still naming the overall profile, but it does include the grind lines, as they are now an intrigal part of the whole design.

The grind is the various executions of removing the metal from the knife blank. If done on a flat belt, you'll typically get a flat grind. If done on a wheel, you'll typically get hollow grind. If done on a anvil with hammers, you'll typically get convex grinds. The edge by nature has to be ground, and the resulting degree of opposition to the original grind (called the bevel) helps in defining how you should hold it in relation to the sharpening stone.

Again, my $0.02.
 
Almost forgot about this thread! :D Sorry if anyone doesn't like me bringing it back up... :(

Originally posted by tonyccw
Those darn Tang thingys: Since BM has decided to executed the design by placing those things away from the tang and into the handles, USING PINS, we'll need to call them xxxx pins. OK, the total Zen thing only gets a minor audience, but the "tang pinless pins" part of it is very valid. And until we can get comfortable in what they are called (and BM has not released what to call them), I don't mind calling them under the Project name of "Zen Pins".
Click to expand...
Why on earth should BM be the only one to give them a name? Why can't they bend to us, for once? I think we bow enough as it is. ;)

Originally posted by tonyccw
They are kick pins in that the kick is now gone, and those pins have replaced it in BM's design. Should someone one decide to milled those functions into the handle, they can then be called kick tabs. If someone decides to not place those kick pin in the "pinched when handles are closed" style as BM has done, but rather in the "pinched when the handles are open" design (as in the other side of the handle) kick pins won't work (as the regular kick will be back to do it's job and it'll have to be a full channel milled handles with channel walls for the kick to rest on), as those pins are now exerting pressure on the real tang ends.... (OK, you'll have to think about that for a bit, I can feel I lost half the class).
Click to expand...
Kick pins... Kick tabs. I think I like those terms.
But what about that 'tang protuberance'? It's not a pin, therefore I don't like the 'zen pin' idea... Even if it means 'no pin'. Suggestions?

Now, if I got your 'pinching' thingy right, you mean that the kick pins would be placed closer to the top of the handle (top = the opposite of the handle channel (bottom))? Why would it all of a sudden need a kick? Couldn't you just make those 'kick hollows' (where the kick pins falls, to stop the blade from hitting the handle) less hollow?

Originally posted by tonyccw
As for the Ricasso thingy: that term only applies if and when there is a bolster seperating the end of the grind line for flat non-ground area of the blade.
Since tradition has us calling those things "Tang stamps", I'll just follow suit.
Click to expand...
Well, you decide, but it is political incorrect. ;)


My disturbed little mind just came up with new stuff.
On most of the balisong anatomy pages I've seen, it says that the punyo, the end of the handles, forms a striking weapon when the balisong is closed.

But the tang can't??

Very few mentiones that. How come? Are you supposed to guess that for youself? Isn't it possible to use the tang to strike? If that's the case, then how come some modifies their bali to have pointy and sharp tang ends? More thrilling to do rollovers and twirls close to the tang? ;) Like the pinching isn't thrilling enough?? :p ;) :D
 
Originally posted by ixpfah



My disturbed little mind just came up with new stuff.
On most of the balisong anatomy pages I've seen, it says that the punyo, the end of the handles, forms a striking weapon when the balisong is closed.

But the tang can't??

Very few mentiones that. How come? Are you supposed to guess that for youself?
Click to expand...

Uh oh now IX is catching on to the greatest secrets of the Cult of the Balisong someone has to stop him.

Really I use my tang as a striking weapon more that the latch end. And of course it will hold those pressure points like no body's business.
 
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