cbach8tw
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In use, does the bolster rattle or has it come loose? After reading what cello Dan wrote, makes me appreciate the integral bolster of my two Maxspecie pieces.
Gaucho knives and cuchillos criollos of South America
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kamagong
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I'll let you know once I have it in hand Jer.
Lol...I guess CS didn't want to call it a cuchillo de campo.
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CelloDan
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Lol, yes perhaps ... Facon sound a lot more "cooler" lol
To cut CS a little bit of slack, terminology and names do have variations.
Mr Domenech himself states this in the paragraph just before the portion you cited earlier:
"Several types of knives were used by gauchos in the past. They received different names depending on shape, general design and local customs. It is worth noting that, being persons of little literacy, gauchos called their knives by different names, paying little attention to their true characteristics but using the names they would have heard from their elders. Thus, a knife was a facón for one person, but the same knife may have been called a daga by another. It is also worth noting that the features which must be present in a specific specimen in order to classify it as a particular type are subject to debate, as there is no definite or rigid pattern or list of characteristics which exactly define each one. The present classification, which I propose in my books and writings, is that classification that I have used during the last 25 years and can be considered of rather "modern" usage, though based in the local customs and the most widely accepted morphology of each variant. Some authors accept these definitions as offered while others propose some little changes. When considering gaucho knives, we must always bear in mind that their manufacture was more a result of improvisation in taking advantage of the available materials, than a true cutlery product, as with the English cutlery trade."
I myself am on journey of discovery and learning regarding criollo knives, of which I had very little knowledge prior to starting this thread.
I remember Maxi telling me that the small criollo I was looking into ordering was actually called a "Verijero".
It seems the bolster is a part of the handle itself and not part of the blade ?
There is a collar around it as well.
Yes, the knife does look good.
I can see myself considering it if it was not for the bolster ... and the "saw" on the spine
Not file marks Dan - that is a saw edge, just in case you need some bones sawing, woodworking or bushcrafting to be done. Makes it a survival tool.
Oh, I see ! Gracias Ray
Imho, I don't think a saw edge belongs on a criollo spine though.
The iconic file marks on the spine of many criollo knives are part of it's tradition
I do like them and even requested Maxi to include his own personal file marks interpretation on the blade blank he is making me.
A picture and a quote from Mr Domenech's essay:
"Usual notches or file marks on top of the back of blade. Typical on most Argentinean puñales with each brand having their own pattern of marks.
Popular beliefs attribute different uses to these file marks, but in my personal opinion, they were just decorations."
File marks on my Pampa Verijero
A saw on the back of a criollo ???
What can I say ?
Now that I've derailed the thread back to the original programming LOL
It has been rock solid, with no rattle or anything coming loose.
It's freaking huge, and really seems like a solid user and I do plan to put some miles on it eventually, but I haven't really used it much yet, it's only been mine a few months and it's been pretty cold out, haha.
Your knife there is gorgeous! As are most all posted! Very enjoyable thread.
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Very handsome knife. Something I've noticed in several of the modern-made pieces shown in this thread, this one included, is that the bolster goes into the blade itself. It's an interesting feature, which I don't recall seeing in older examples.
Just to add to what others have said, my main issue with this knife, as with other CS models, is that it's a bit too over the top for my taste. I think there are other more stylistically balanced, functional, and even arguably "authentic" alternatives in the mass-produced section of the market, such as the following models sold by Elmo, Piteira, and Muela:I may be committing sacrilege, wonder if the Cold Steel version with a 12 inch blade would be any good. I know, I know y’all will be ousting me from this thread.
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cbach8tw
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Thanks, I didn’t know Muela made a version. Looks much more handy and authentic than the CS. Still I wonder if the CS would be useful or more just a show stopper. Not that a 12 inch blade Would be practical cutting up rotisserie chicken or pork loin. I would like to keep my fingers.Very handsome knife. Something I've noticed in several of the modern-made pieces shown in this thread, this one included, is that the bolster goes into the blade itself. It's an interesting feature, which I don't recall seeing in older examples.
Just to add to what others have said, my main issue with this knife, as with other CS models, is that it's a bit too over the top for my taste. I think there are other more stylistically balanced, functional, and even arguably "authentic" alternatives in the mass-produced section of the market, such as the following models sold by Elmo, Piteira, and Muela:
kamagong
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I wonder if the CS would be useful or more just a show stopper. Not that a 12 inch blade Would be practical cutting up rotisserie chicken or pork loin. I would like to keep my fingers.
Interesting. I'm drawn to the bigger criollo knives. I have a 7 inch knife with a 9 inch on the way. I'm seriously debating whether the next one should have an 11 inch blade.
Criollo knives are like khukuris and bowies that way. The bigger the better.
cbach8tw
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So should I go for it? I could better spend the 114.00 dollars elsewhere….or better yet not at all. If I do get it, what would I use it for? I haven’t set up an asado and butchered any cows lately.Interesting. I'm drawn to the bigger criollo knives. I have a 7 inch knife with a 9 inch on the way. I'm seriously debating whether the next one should have an 11 inch blade.
Criollo knives are like khukuris and bowies that way. The bigger the better.
Would I be laughed out of the asado because I brought it along?
CelloDan
, save me!! Tell me I can do all I want with my Verijero and my 7 inch one too.
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kamagong
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Good choice. I was going to suggest putting some patina on those first before buying the CS.
echoscout
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CelloDan
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Very interesting observation ! I had not noticed this before.
Perhaps it has to do with the hand forging and shaping of the blade/bolsters vs factory drop forged blades.
Or perhaps, as all things change over time, it is just a modern interpretation of the criollo by current bladesmiths
I feel the same about CS interpretation of the criollo.
A.G Russell has a Boker Criollo readily available in North America as well.
It is made in Argentina however it appears to be a different model than the quite expensive criollos Boker sells only in Argentina and that were discussed recently.
This one is described as having a slim 6 inch blade, German drop forged C-60 at 55-57 Rc.
I then noticed that it says on the description page of this knife that it has stainless bolsters ??? .... Which does not make sense to me.
I also noticed that they did change the description of the knife. A few months ago there were contradictory statements regarding the steel of the knife, one part said C60 and on another it stated 440 A.
I wrote to A.G Russel last year about it and this is the response I received.
"The steels 440A and C60 are equivalent to each other in composition and hardness.
This information was provided by Boker, so 440A should be correct."
I noticed that the Muela version does not have a bolster. It looks a like a hidden tang construction with an imitation of a bolster that is actually part of the handle.Thanks, I didn’t know Muela made a version. Looks much more handy and authentic than the CS. Still I wonder if the CS would be useful or more just a show stopper. Not that a 12 inch blade Would be practical cutting up rotisserie chicken or pork loin. I would like to keep my fingers.
Imo an integral bolster is one of the defining characteristics of a traditional criollo.
So should I go for it? I could better spend the 114.00 dollars elsewhere….or better yet not at all. If I do get it, what would I use it for? I haven’t set up an asado and butchered any cows lately.
lolI would never judge another gaucho's choice of blade mi amigo
One thing though, If we ever get together for an asado and you have a big 12 inch blade you will automatically become the designated butcher to dispatch and quarter the unfortunate bovine
P.S. Since you asked ....You can do all you want with your Verijero and your 7 inch Puñal lol
Interesting. I'm drawn to the bigger criollo knives. I have a 7 inch knife with a 9 inch on the way. I'm seriously debating whether the next one should have an 11 inch blade.
Criollo knives are like khukuris and bowies that way. The bigger the better.
You may as well go for an actual "Facon" Christian
however I have no idea how to even go about procuring one.They were usually made locally from broken swords, sabres, bayonet etc. as opposed to the "Puñal" that was in large part imported as blade blanks to be handled locally.
The "Facon" was really a fighting blade, even though a gaucho would use it for most anything. It was at times banned and a prohibited weapon in some locations.
The "Puñal" and the "Verijero" ( a small "Puñal") were multipurpose all around blades.
It is said that the name "Facon" in Spanish originates from the Portuguese word for knife "Faca".
When the early portuguese speaking gauchos saw the large blades of their neighbours from the "Banda Oriental", present day Uruguay, they admired the big knives and referred to them as "facao" ( big knife ). To the Spanish speaking gauchos this sounded like "Facon"
Two "Facones" ( with guards ) and a Daga.
Here are a couple videos I found interesting:
kamagong
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You may as well go for an actual "Facon" Christian
Lol...
No facon for me. Like Domenech, I find the puñal the most interesting of the criollo knives. I think an 11" would be plenty, that's the size Hector Casales has.
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It has to be noted, however, that many criollos from back in the day had a non-integral bolster. This includes, of course, so-called cuchillos de campo -- which came, and still come, in both puñal and verijero sizes -- and also hidden-tang knives more similar to what we think of when we hear the term cuchillo criollo. In this regard, though this might sound like heresy, it has to be said that Domenech's typology is rather arbitrary.
CelloDan
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As always your insights are very much appreciated T Trubetzkoy
!Thank you for weighing in !
I should have noted and made clear in my previous post that I was specifically referring to the traditional puñal criollo and not to the other types of gaucho/criollo blades such as the facón, facón caronero, daga, cuchillo de campo and cuchilla.
I don't think that what your stated is heresy at all
as there are, of course, variations and exceptions to the definition of a traditional puñal.I myself tend to shy away from rigid or dogmatic positions however I personally would not go as far as to say that Domenech's typology is rather arbitrary.
When it comes to the traditional puñal, and at my initial stage in the learning and discovering about these knives, I subscribe to the idea that an integral bolster is a defining characteristic of the type.
I'd like to share a fascinating article about the history of the puñal criollo authored by Alberto "Guido" Chester, a respected book author, historian and collector of criollo knives (it is in Spanish unfortunately).
In the article he proposes 4 hypothesis as to the origin of the puñal and also describes its characteristics and features.
In regards to the bolster he states:
Click HERE for Spanish quote:
"A fundamental point was the existence of a strong bolster forged in the same piece that would give firmness to the structure and that would allow the force of the cut to be transferred from a longitudinal plane (the blade) to a transverse plane (the handle) without the risk of breaking in the Union."
While describing the blade he states:
" The blade, tang and bolster are a single piece obtained by forging a piece of steel"
In this part of the article he takes a different position than Domenech on the possible origins of the puñal and then elaborates more on the bolster
"Contrary to Domenech's Flemish argument, we can say that the knives of that origin were small and their structure was not strong enough for the rural tasks that were required of a knife for the pampas. We advance our hypothesis, when the knife was enlarged to the 20 or 30 centimeters typical of the Criollo blade, it was necessary to incorporate a bolster (that is, a thickening of the forging) by which the force exerted on the blade is transferred to the tang (necessarily weaker so that it contains the handle and can be taken by the hand". ( translated by google )
The author acknowledges that in modern days "welded" bolsters have become quite common due to their affordability.
He also mentions what he refers to as "neo criollos" here:
"The neo criollos are knives made by urban artisans who seek to maintain the traditional shape of the criollo knife, but who work by roughing (stock thinning) and without welding, which does not allow them to make them with a bolster, nor a welded bolster but with a metal plate and scales glued to the style of integral knives."
I would like to mention as well that Mr Guido Chester co wrote a book about criollo knives titled:
"Cuchillos Argentinos. Plateros y Marcas"
I corresponded with the author and with the editor as well in hopes of getting a copy for myself.
The book is out of print now however the editor was able to get me one at a very affordable price.
Unfortunately, the shipping costs to Canada was very expensive as the book is quite large, coffee table sized with lots of pictures.
Our discussion has reignited my desire of getting a copy of this work while it can still be obtained
Images from inside of the book:
Mr Guido Chester standing at the printing press for the much awaited book.
A prior book by the author is titled :
"Las otras Marcas."
In it he catalogs many hundreds of lesser known brands and stamps of criollo knives.
The release of the book at the museum “Las Lilas” in San Antonio de Areco, Buenos Aires. This town is also home the iconic Ricardo Güiraldes Gaucho Museum.
An introduction with a question and answers session ( in Spanish )
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Thansks for sharing! Hilario has a lot of interesting stuff on their website. I like looking at knife pictures from their old auctions.
As for this, my point was precisely that some examples, including antiques, defy classification. For instance, a while back I found this example in a different forum (Vikingsword, if my memory serves me well), whose overall shape and dimensions bring it closer to a puñal than anything else, yet it has a non-integral, nickel-silver bolster:
I do agree with you though: integral bolsters are a quintessential feature of puñales and verijeros. And while I wouldn't mind a non-integral bolster in an antique like the one above, which I know to be hand-forged, I'd probably shy away from a modern-piece featuring one.
Its quite possible that the knives with non-integral bolsters were made using blade blanks imported from Europe. I don't think that was a feature found on blades made in England or Germany. As I recall, thats where many of the earlier knives originated. Forged integral bolsters seem to be more of a South American thing.
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The one from my last post is most certainly from Germany. I've seen Herders, for example, with the same grinding and etching, and that scabbard pattern was made by Herder and Kirschbaum, among others.
As for integral bolsters not being a European thing, I'm not sure. German hunting knives of the Jagdnicker type have always come with one. Then of course you have carving knives, which traditionally have this feature in both Germany and England. And then of course we have so-called Mediterranean daggers, which are also characterized by an integral bolster.
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As a linguist, I meant to say something about this in my previous post, but forgot to do so.
The noun faca existed in Spanish way before the encounters described by Domenech. According to the Royal Spanish Academy, it comes from Andalusi Arabic fárẖa, which in turn is said to come from Classical Arabic farẖah. In this regard, we must remember that Spanish and Portuguese are both Romance languages, spoken in neighboring countries (both of which were under Muslim rule in the Middle Ages), and as such both languages basically started as slightly diverging dialects of "Vulgar Latin." Miguel Covarrubias does say that, with the meaning 'knife,' the term comes from Portuguese. But then again Covarrubias's dictionary is from 1611 -- again, way earlier than the events described by Domenech.
As for facón, this word indeed seems to be of South American origin, as the first examples in the Corpus Diacrónico de la Lengua Española are from Paulino Lucero (1853), by Argentine poet Hilario Ascasubi. However, since the noun faca already existed in Spanish (regardless of whether it originally came from Portuguese, which in any case would've happened centuries earlier), and augmentation with the suffix -ón has been a productive pattern in this language for centuries (e.g., barracón 'bunkhouse' < barraca 'tent'), it's not at all obvious to me that the term was simply a phonetic adaptation of Port. facão as used by Portuguese-speaking gauchos.
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The term almost certainly is a derivative of the old colloquial Latin word falcionem, which refers to cutting with a single edge blade. There are many similar names in most languages with Latin roots - falchion, fauchon, faca, facao, finka etc....